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Old 06-03-2008, 03:37 PM   #10151
xxThe_Lebowskixx
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

many teams are good and right one the edge but they blow it with one pick. steve smith is a pussy. that drops your team, imho.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:38 PM   #10152
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Unless the Jordan team starts making some late round steals, itll come down to these teams. everyone else is so far its not even close.

Patrick Ewing, Larry Nance, Mookie Blaylock, Allan Houston

Shaq, Eddie Jones, Derrick Coleman, Terrell Brandon

David Robinson, Terry Porter, Mark Aguirre

Reggie Miller, Dennis Rodman, Ron Artest, Sam Perkins




Hakeem/Glen Rice has promise until he mucked it up with Odom and Strickland.
Please tell me why Stockton, Mullin, Oakley, Z sucks.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:41 PM   #10153
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xxThe_Lebowskixx View Post
Unless the Jordan team starts making some late round steals, itll come down to these teams. everyone else is so far its not even close.

Patrick Ewing, Larry Nance, Mookie Blaylock, Allan Houston

Shaq, Eddie Jones, Derrick Coleman, Terrell Brandon

David Robinson, Terry Porter, Mark Aguirre

Reggie Miller, Dennis Rodman, Ron Artest, Sam Perkins




Hakeem/Glen Rice has promise until he mucked it up with Odom and Strickland.
DO you really think that the reggie miller team is better than my team? and you want people to take you seriously?
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:43 PM   #10154
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Please tell me why Stockton, Mullin, Oakley, Z sucks.
+1
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:45 PM   #10155
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This was about the time I first moved to Denver, and I think I can offer a bit of insight. First, those Nugs were like this years Woyas on crack. Doug Moe was a big proponent of wearing teams out, and getting into your offense before your opponents had time to get set. It was quite a successful system, but they never quite reached the promised land.

Anyway on Fat. He was a tremendous driver-finisher/kicker of the ball. I don't think you can compare him to Kidd because JK is more of a player that has a knack for delivering the ball perfectly without a lot of penetration, whereas Fat used confusion and his own offense to get other guys open. Rebounding wise, he was a lot like Kidd in that he used it to trigger the break. Defensively he was pretty special iirc, with great on the ball D and awesome in the passing lanes.

Nugs announcers always called him our version of Oscar Robertson, and his stats were close. During his best year he averaged ~ 19/8/7, although those numbers are obviously going to be inflated because Denver ran at such a breakneck speed and would often take bad shots if guys were in position for the board.

I think Fat would probably be something like a 15/5/6 guy in a normal system, with greater shooting efficiency and equal, if not better defense. That's still pretty freaking awesome...

I'm warming up to the pick though because I'm not sure there is as much need for a spot up guy. If horizon's team had a major post game, which they don't, I'd say a shooter is more valuable. As it stands they've now got two awesome penetrators, an all world shooter, and a decent cleanup guy. Offensively that's going to be a tough cover... Defensively it depends on how you view Emeka's game, and to be honest I haven't seen him enough to form an opinion.

[edit] After a bit of thought, I'm completely sold that this is a great pick.
Good analysis, but I'm still not sure I understand why or how in his prime Fat Lever had the lowest TS% of anyone in this draft BY FAR. I mean, even Mookie Blaylock, who was horrible at it, had about 2-3 percentage points more in his prime.

I realize that stats aren't everything, so basically I'm trying to have people sell me on the idea that hes not an enormous detriment to a team due to his high volume/beyond bad efficiency but I just don't see it so far. And its not like its a fluke either: He was very consistently bad each and every year regarding efficiency.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:45 PM   #10156
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

that teams has potential if they can make some offensive steals. there are still a bunch of pure scorers out there that would fit well with that team. so i think they are in contention.

"John Stockton, Chris Mullin, Charles Oakley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas"

pretty vanilla. stockton's value is decreased without aMalone type big man. I suggest trading for one. dont see your team working great together. Plus, having so many white players will be disparaging to the home crowd.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:47 PM   #10157
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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"John Stockton, Chris Mullin, Charles Oakley, Zydrunas Ilgauskas"

pretty vanilla. stockton's value is decreased with a Malone type big man. I suggest trading for one. dont see your team working great together.
lol. "Pretty Vanilla." Yea, I have white guys. White guys who are really good at basketball.

The Stockon's value decreases stuff is minimal and overblown. If you don't think this team will work together in the half court and defensively than you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:48 PM   #10158
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

A) once you get into the "player A played with player B and that's why he was good" style arguments, you begin to lose credibility. Stockton was a stud, regardless of Malone, end of story

B) he could run pnr and pick and pop with Z all day long.

The Reggie team is pretty awful. You're overrating Artest badly.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:49 PM   #10159
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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A couple things wrong with this:

1. Selective end points. Why did you stop at 18/8/8? Why not 20/7/7?
2. Ignoring efficiency. Fat jacked up 16-18 shots per game during those years. Scoring 20 points on 17 shots isn't so hot, and you're adding him to a team with Lebron (20+ shots per game), Drazen (16 shots per game), Horace (10 shots per game) and Okafor (12 shots per game). He's the 5th best shooter on the team but he takes more shots than most #1 options.
1. agreed

2. Just to belabor his(and my) point a bit more, take a look at the comparison but look at the efficiency:


TS%/Ast%/Rbd% for their careers

Fat: 49.6/26.4/10.1
Magic: 61.0/40.9/11.1


Now obviously anyone looks bad compared to Magic, so I realize its unfair, but you're the one who put Fat in the Michael/Magic/Fat club.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:50 PM   #10160
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Miller, Artest, Perkins, Rodman are four of the coolest players of all time. Perkins had an afro and would pull up from 3 like he didnt even give a ****. Artest+Rodman is insanity.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:50 PM   #10161
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Lebowski is terrrrrrrible at this bball thing. I think the Stockton team is alright, but I don't think it's special. I still stand by my earlier picks.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:52 PM   #10162
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

whats up with zero picks so far today???
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:53 PM   #10163
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Epippen is doing research.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:58 PM   #10164
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I think the pace has a lot to do with his efficiency and inflated stats. Those Nugs pretty much shot when they had a sliver of daylight, so Fat is going to have more points/assists/rebs/steals than he would in a normal system, but he'll also be less efficient given the number of shots. I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be a 15/5/5 guy with a TS around 55% in a normal system. That's still pretty awesome at this point in the draft.

Plus anyone who can go 31/16/20/6 in a 100-96 game is a pretty valuable teammate, methinks.
Oh come on! Fat Lever played 2 years in Portland and 3 years in Dallas too. His TS% in those 5 years was 47.7, 49.5, 49.7, 45.2, and 46.2.

Steve Nash and Amare Stoudamire don't seem to have their TS%s affected too much by the fast pace. 55+% TS is very good. Fat Lever is the worst TS% guy in the entire draft. Going from worst in the draft to very good is an ENORMOUS STRETCH just based upon system.

I respect that fact that you've seen him play while I havn't, but I think thats an absurd comment.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:58 PM   #10165
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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1. agreed

2. Just to belabor his(and my) point a bit more, take a look at the comparison but look at the efficiency:


TS%/Ast%/Rbd% for their careers

Fat: 49.6/26.4/10.1
Magic: 61.0/40.9/11.1


Now obviously anyone looks bad compared to Magic, so I realize its unfair, but you're the one who put Fat in the Michael/Magic/Fat club.
LOL. I did not put him in that club. I just listed the nba-team to point that he had to be pretty good to be in this company. I won't compare him to magic that's insane.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:01 PM   #10166
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

"Grant Hill, Shawn Kemp, Arvydis Sabonis, Kevin Durant"

looks good i guess, i dont understand completely how injuries and alcoholism play into the simulation so i just ignored teams like this with strong but uncertain players. grant hill was still a pretty boy, fwiw. i think penny had more potential to be completely honest.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:01 PM   #10167
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Oh come on! Fat Lever played 2 years in Portland and 3 years in Dallas too. His TS% in those 5 years was 47.7, 49.5, 49.7, 45.2, and 46.2.

Steve Nash and Amare Stoudamire don't seem to have their TS%s affected too much by the fast pace. 55+% TS is very good. Fat Lever is the worst TS% guy in the entire draft. Going from worst in the draft to very good is an ENORMOUS STRETCH just based upon system.

I respect that fact that you've seen him play while I havn't, but I think thats an absurd comment.
Come on, now he was not the same player in dallas after his injury problems.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:02 PM   #10168
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He didn't pass too well, though. That was an illusion of pace. He rebounds well, he passes okay, and he's a chucker. He's a shoot first guy who can't shoot.
He ranks 81st in NBA history in assist %, which is ok but behind most every PG taken so far. The more I look at the advanced numbes, the more I don't like the fit for this team offensively. Defensively, is obviously another story.

edit: Yea, JoA already posted this I see now.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:02 PM   #10169
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Miller, Artest, Perkins, Rodman are four of the coolest players of all time. Perkins had an afro and would pull up from 3 like he didnt even give a ****. Artest+Rodman is insanity.
Coolest doesn't make it a great team. I needed a shooter, I'm sorry there aren't a ton of cool shooters available who didn't have injury problems that were left at my spot.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #10170
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

LOL at Epippen trading up and not knowing who he was going to take and slowing us down.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #10171
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Capone, teams are obviously judged on coolness alone. Did you not get the memo?

Last edited by Franchise 60; 06-03-2008 at 04:04 PM. Reason: tat's help too
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:05 PM   #10172
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Round #5 Pick #Luol Deng #164



If this was last year, Luol Deng would have been a probable early 3rd round pick. Instead, the Bulls sucked this year, and Deng didn't perform as well as he did the year before and also had some injuries (although none were serious and shouldn't effect him long term.) However he still had a good season (although worse than the year before) even with his team struggling and dealing with injuries, and came on very strong at the end of the year which is a very good sign he can return or even improve on his breakout year just 1 year ago.

Even better is he is only 22 years old, so he is also still is very young and should improve. He is also a very hard worker (they had some piece on NBATV a year ago showing exactly how hard he works, and the announcers were impressed).

He is also an elite defender at the SF position due to his great size/length/quickness who can score with the ball in his hands, or without the ball because he has a good midrange jump shot. He is also a good rebounder and can help my team on the boards. We will also make sure he works on his jump shot the most, since he will be primarly used as our defensive stopper at the SG/SF position and off the ball on offense (but we can give him the ball too if there is a mismatch).

Team so far:

PF/C Kevin McHale
SF Luol Deng
SG Kevin Martin
PG Chauncey Billups
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:07 PM   #10173
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
A couple things wrong with this:

1. Selective end points. Why did you stop at 18/8/8? Why not 20/7/7?
2. Ignoring efficiency. Fat jacked up 16-18 shots per game during those years. Scoring 20 points on 17 shots isn't so hot, and you're adding him to a team with Lebron (20+ shots per game), Drazen (16 shots per game), Horace (10 shots per game) and Okafor (12 shots per game). He's the 5th best shooter on the team but he takes more shots than most #1 options.
WHy on earth will everybody on my team average the same numbers that in real life??!!!?

Fat is probably going to take at best 10 shots given how my team is built. No ay is TS% is goint to hurt my team so much
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:08 PM   #10174
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Hmm trying to figure out which guy epi is going...I guess I have it narrowed to an interesting possibilty too.

Last edited by BJLTNYK; 06-03-2008 at 04:09 PM. Reason: he took deng
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:09 PM   #10175
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The problem looking now is there aren't many PGs left who are much better or close to Fat's level. You have more inefficient players, bad passers, short careers, young players, etc. so I don't know what kind of player your looking to get at PG in the 5th round but the picks are pretty bad. Now swing there are still a ton of good players left albeit with holes but at the PG if you waited this late, your going to have a guy who isn't all that great.
True, but with Lebron do you really need a true PG?

PG: XXXXXXXXXX
SG: Drazen Petrovic
SF: Lebron James
PF: Horace Grant
C: Emeka Okafor


That team makes me envision a version of the current Spurs, where Lebron=Parker in that hes their one man fast break, but otherwise they're a half court team that has a superstar, good shooters, and another guy who can most definitely get hot and carry the team from time to time. Obviously I can't name names of undrafted players, so that makes this difficult, but I'll let you know when they are picked.

I don't think Lebron needs Fat to get out on the break and run basically, and I think Fat's shooting %s really hurt the team.

Defensively of course, as I've always said, I like the pick though....but I think defensive PGs are a bit overrated.
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