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Old 06-03-2008, 10:32 AM   #10101
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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That's really not what I'm arguing. The point I'm trying to make is that Fat would be a lower volume/higher efficiency guy in a normal system. Doug Moe preached quick shots and offensive rebounds, so often Fat would pass to someone who wasn't in the best position to shoot, but did it anyway. Because of this, fat's rebounding and assists are a bit inflated. Even if his assists came off lower percentage shots, they were still there in abundance due to the sheer volume of shots taken. Likewise for his shooting--Fat took a bunch of bad shots because the offense he ran dictated it. I don't think the quantity of his shots in relation to the team would change in a different system, but I do think the quality of those shots would increase.
Ssshhhhhh!
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:35 AM   #10102
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ssshhhhhh!
edited out... oops.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:38 AM   #10103
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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how do you explain his Ass/to ratio?
I'm not trying to be an ******* here, but how do you think he got it?

For eligible guards, his AST% is about 40th from 24-29 (clearly his peak). His TOV% is about 35th. But he's only one of 30 guys to have an AST% > 25 and TOV% < 15. That puts him in the company of guys like Michael Jordan, Eddie Jones, Allen Iverson, Jason Terry, Clyde Drexler, Mike Bibby, and Derek Harper.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:39 AM   #10104
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The problem looking now is there aren't many PGs left who are much better or close to Fat's level. You have more inefficient players, bad passers, short careers, young players, etc. so I don't know what kind of player your looking to get at PG in the 5th round but the picks are pretty bad. Now swing there are still a ton of good players left albeit with holes but at the PG if you waited this late, your going to have a guy who isn't all that great.
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:42 AM   #10105
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He didn't pass too well, though. That was an illusion of pace. He rebounds well, he passes okay, and he's a chucker. He's a shoot first guy who can't shoot.
His passing, as well as his perceived chucking are both illusions of pace. His usage percentages aren't really that extraordinary..

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-03-2008 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:42 AM   #10106
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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they had some help.

actually let me clarify: one of the years, kmart was easily the 4th best defender.
Really not seeing it. He was 2nd IMO.

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I'm taking Fat LEver. The main reason is that he's still available (pick 163??!!!)
This pick is awesome. I read through the thread before posting and basically Fat gives you a little pace to run the fast breaks with, alongside LBJ (and Petrovic playing camper).

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Now THIS is a team. That team would be top 3 in the NBA basically any year.
QFT

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i dont like him bc wqhen you get him you get an avg nba player. there is no gaurntee he gets really good. it's a gamble. i guess im gambkle averse.\
Do you really think he was average this season? Or was his PER average? (What's the difference, AMIRITE!??!?!?!) For example, say he was magically traded to a contender (let's say the Hornets to keep it easy and because they need a 2), don't you think his stats look much better (starting over MoPete or coming off the bench for 25 mpg?)

Also for clarification, I get him having already played a season, he doesn't re-do his rookie year.

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are you ****ing kidding me\/
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i dont see why adding one questionable character defualts my team. dude was ****ing SKILLED. so i have on question mark, the rest of my guys are quality locker room (TB won a sportsmanship award~ so did EJ(
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dont now why my team is getting so much play but playa plzzzzzz my team will **** you up saon
Bobbo....drunk???

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That is sick.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:05 PM   #10107
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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how do you explain his Ass/to ratio?
I think this is a very good point. If he wasn't a good passer, his ratio shouldnt be greater than 3:1, but it is. I don't doubt his numbers are inflated, and that he is probably going to shoot more than you would like, but I think the TO numbers show that he made good passes. Look at Iverson's numbers for example, another guy who gets most of his assists off of his ability to slash/penetrate. Iverson isn't a good passer, and the numbers show it - less than 2:1 ratio, averaged near 4 TOs a game.

D

Iverson may not be the best comparison; I realize this.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:19 PM   #10108
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

But they have very similar AST% and TOV% numbers. Part of it is that the Denver team took so many shots (so you would expect the primary passer to get a lot of assists) and p[art of it is that Iverson took a ton of shots (so he handled the ball a lot more than Fat).
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:33 PM   #10109
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

his ast/to ratio is explained more by the fact that he protects the ball very well, not that he's a sick assist guy.

Most solid PGs have AST% up over 30% somewhere.. elite guys over 40%, guys like Cassell, mid 30s. However, most of the elite assist guys (Stockton, Nash, Jackson) have high TOV%'s too.. ~20%. Next level guys like Cassell ~15%. Lever didn't really turn it over much.. TOV% of 12% for his career, down at 10% during his peak from age 26-29, while at the same time posting his highest AST%.

I think this is a good pick, but I think the concerns about how he fits the offense are legit. I just have a really hard time judging some of these Denver guys. PER gets inflated for these guys, as we saw with Kiki. And I have no idea how good they play in a pure system. However, Fat's skills are such that this is solid value. You're not getting a John Stockton at this point.

I don't necessarily buy everyone's argument that LeBron is best served being a point-forward. It's not like you stop being a sick creator the second a solid PG joins your team. He'll still have iso opportunities where he can score and set up others. But right now it's a huge burden on him when he has to get the ball out near the top in order for the Cavs to create anything. Maybe now he'll be able to develop a post game.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:37 PM   #10110
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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his ast/to ratio is explained more by the fact that he protects the ball very well, not that he's a sick assist guy.

Most solid PGs have AST% up over 30% somewhere.. elite guys over 40%, guys like Cassell, mid 30s. However, most of the elite assist guys (Stockton, Nash, Jackson) have high TOV%'s too.. ~20%. Next level guys like Cassell ~15%. Lever didn't really turn it over much.. TOV% of 12% for his career, down at 10% during his peak from age 26-29, while at the same time posting his highest AST%.

I think this is a good pick, but I think the concerns about how he fits the offense are legit. I just have a really hard time judging some of these Denver guys. PER gets inflated for these guys, as we saw with Kiki. And I have no idea how good they play in a pure system. However, Fat's skills are such that this is solid value. You're not getting a John Stockton at this point.

I don't necessarily buy everyone's argument that LeBron is best served being a point-forward. It's not like you stop being a sick creator the second a solid PG joins your team. He'll still have iso opportunities where he can score and set up others. But right now it's a huge burden on him when he has to get the ball out near the top in order for the Cavs to create anything. Maybe now he'll be able to develop a post game.
This is all quality work. I also wanted to add that surrounding LBJ with shooters may not be the best philosophy given his playing style. It's not like that's worked wonders in real life.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:57 PM   #10111
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I just woke up. It looks like horizon wins.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:01 PM   #10112
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

meh, I think his team is great, but I think his frontcourt is less than stellar. I think there are a few 4-man squads that can eclipse it.

horizon, did you PM RUFFNECK? I wanna pickkkk, though I'm still deciding.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:13 PM   #10113
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Lesson for me today: Stats don't always mean what I think they mean.

I wish there was a bad pass % stat, but sadly there's not.

At any rate, I still think Fat was good, if not great value at this point and prob the best PG left.

D
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:16 PM   #10114
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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meh, I think his team is great, but I think his frontcourt is less than stellar. I think there are a few 4-man squads that can eclipse it.

horizon, did you PM RUFFNECK? I wanna pickkkk, though I'm still deciding.
hopefully he did. RUFFNECK was on a couple hours ago but then disappeared
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:33 PM   #10115
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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plus he held mj to 28/9/5/6/4.
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Old 06-03-2008, 02:46 PM   #10116
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

An NBA box score with 196 points and exactly four 3PA is pretty lol imo
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:01 PM   #10117
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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his ast/to ratio is explained more by the fact that he protects the ball very well, not that he's a sick assist guy.

Most solid PGs have AST% up over 30% somewhere.. elite guys over 40%, guys like Cassell, mid 30s. However, most of the elite assist guys (Stockton, Nash, Jackson) have high TOV%'s too.. ~20%. Next level guys like Cassell ~15%. Lever didn't really turn it over much.. TOV% of 12% for his career, down at 10% during his peak from age 26-29, while at the same time posting his highest AST%.

I think this is a good pick, but I think the concerns about how he fits the offense are legit. I just have a really hard time judging some of these Denver guys. PER gets inflated for these guys, as we saw with Kiki. And I have no idea how good they play in a pure system. However, Fat's skills are such that this is solid value. You're not getting a John Stockton at this point.

I don't necessarily buy everyone's argument that LeBron is best served being a point-forward. It's not like you stop being a sick creator the second a solid PG joins your team. He'll still have iso opportunities where he can score and set up others. But right now it's a huge burden on him when he has to get the ball out near the top in order for the Cavs to create anything. Maybe now he'll be able to develop a post game.
Very good post.

To me he was a good passer because he could make good passes while taking good care of the ball. I've never claimed that he was a sick assist guy.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:02 PM   #10118
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

kukoc is one of the drafts biggest steals. he could play C-SG and would have been a 20 ppg scorer had it not been for pippen and jordan being on the same team. he could do anything on the court. had his biggest numbers after pip/jordan left in his 8thish season.

most of you guys are idiots and suck at picking. best teams thus far are clarknasty's and the porter/robinson team.

also, dale ellis was absolutely sick. i think he threw up high 20's in a couple seasons. how does he slip that far?

edit: so many great players who should have already been drafted LAST ROUND. you guys are idiots...
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:06 PM   #10119
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lebowski,
PM your insane value pick please!!
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:13 PM   #10120
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

My team is better than yours lebowski

Last edited by Franchise 60; 06-03-2008 at 03:15 PM. Reason: haha you don't even have one
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:13 PM   #10121
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I am trading my 5th(164),9th(324), and 10th(397).

for

EPiPen11 5th(181),8th(301) and 9th(341).
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:13 PM   #10122
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Live chat with Hollinger right now on espn.com. We should all repeatedly ask the same rediculous question until he answers it. Either that, or refer him here.

D
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:14 PM   #10123
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I am trading my 5th(164),9th(324), and 10th(397).

for

EPiPen11 5th(181),8th(301) and 9th(341).
confirmed, can I pm a few knowledgeable people, I have a question about a players injury...
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:15 PM   #10124
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Wow way to get RAPED.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:16 PM   #10125
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

haven't we answered all the injury questions already?

and RUFFNECK, you got hosed IMO
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