Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2008, 06:02 AM   #10076
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
decent value but im not sure about fit. he'd be great on a team that needs a rebounder - he's like jason kidd lite. he def was high up on value from the PG shot, but he just wasn't that good aside from rebounding.. and you dont need boarding for your team... and you dont really need passing.. and those are his 2 best assets...

still, anyone with a nickname of "fat" is ok in my book
I don't remember Fat, but I know hes highly regarded. Can someone explain to me his woeful TS% and what he does so well?
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:06 AM   #10077
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
Jermaine was the second most efficient player on the US team, so, no they don't shoot 80%.

Really though, the point I was illustrating is that his usage went down and his efficiency compared to his peers went way up. Obviously he would never shoot 60% in a real league, but he was more efficient than many other Americans (including Duncan) over a 4-game stretch. More important than numbers over a small sample size (which don't mean that much without context) is the fact that he played the roll he was asked and played it very well when surrounded by superior offensive talent. He did not chuck and get lucky; he played good offensive sets and only took good shots. So Bobbo claiming that he can't do that is wrong, in my opinion.

It's not exactly proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but it's the only time I could find where Jermaine played competitive ball and didn't have the offense run through him, so it's the only evidence we have.
I know that you mention that its a limited sample size, but I think you fail to realize how next to nothing a sample size of 4 really is. I don't think that means one thing to be honest, as you just can't tell from 4 games against inferior competition. Hell, didn't Undrafted Player X look amazing in this year's summer league?
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:20 AM   #10078
flyingmoose
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,224
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well, I did clarify that I'm not concerned with the numbers but with the fact that O'Neal did what was best for the team in the games. I only mentioned the numbers because they help punctuate the point that JoN can play a good team game.

I feel like I should stop trying though. I keep saying that JoN can be reasonably efficient when not shouldering the load. You guys keep saying no. I throw out the only time JoN played without being the number 1 option as evidence and you say it doesn't count. With nothing else to go on I'm out of a case, I suppose.

Whatever. I guess I'm doomed to having Jermaine jack up 40 shots a game inefficiently. I should have realized that no team with Jermaine O'Neal can ever be good on the offensive end.

Last edited by flyingmoose; 06-03-2008 at 06:30 AM.
flyingmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:28 AM   #10079
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Like I said, I don't know a ton about Lever, but at first glance I absolutely hate the pick for this team offensively. I think you don't really need a true PG with Lebron on the team. What you need are shooters who can space the floor and hit open shots imo.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:31 AM   #10080
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
decent value but im not sure about fit. he'd be great on a team that needs a rebounder - he's like jason kidd lite. he def was high up on value from the PG shot, but he just wasn't that good aside from rebounding.. and you dont need boarding for your team... and you dont really need passing.. and those are his 2 best assets...

still, anyone with a nickname of "fat" is ok in my book
you always need passing, defense, and rebounding, no matter how good your team are, in this areas, any edge is good to take.
Plus you have to think at what kind of rebounds I'll be getting: Lots of long rebounds= Fastbreak= easy buckets.
You better not miss your threes against my team.

And nickname is obviously one of the main reaons I regard him so highly
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:40 AM   #10081
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Like I said, I don't know a ton about Lever, but at first glance I absolutely hate the pick for this team offensively. I think you don't really need a true PG with Lebron on the team. What you need are shooters who can space the floor and hit open shots imo.
Exactly what I've said before.
I've already have one of the best shooter in the eague.
And you 're right about guys that can space the fllor and hit open shoots, but I can get them later.

you've got to stop thinking about team in just one way.
Of course the standard with Lebron james is guys who can hit open shots, but I'll be ablle to play this type of game by picking good bench guys.
Now my team can be a great fastbreaking team as well.

Versatlity is not just about one player, it's about your whole team.
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:43 AM   #10082
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

To illustrate my point, depending on who I get in the next rounds , I might use Fat Lever a supersub.

Btw you’re all overrating the value of Lebron James at the point. If you give him the ball when he’salready in motion he’s unstoppable
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:50 AM   #10083
HighStakesPro
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,949
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

pickpickpick plz
HighStakesPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 06:54 AM   #10084
flyingmoose
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,224
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Question: Is Jordan's team at risk of Jordan getting bored and going to play baseball or are we assuming Jordan has enough interest in our league to stick around?
flyingmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 07:20 AM   #10085
nath
the second coming of the second coming
 
nath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rust and Marty, a hundred years
Posts: 67,735
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I like the Seikaly pick and might have considered him in the 5th

I also think the Lever pick is great, even though I don't know much about him firsthand; he definitely would've been a sleeper of mine if I hadn't decided to go with Calderon earlier. horizon's lineup looks pretty nasty at first glance.
nath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 08:16 AM   #10086
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,035
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
4 man squads that I think are the best not including my own:

seadood's - KG, Lambs, Hornacek, Miller (fwiw I can't understand people saying Miller isn't a great fit. A pure shooter who doesn't completely suck at everything else is AWESOME on any team, especially one this pass-happy).

cowboy - Sheed, Glove, Ty Chandler, LJ. i have no idea how good they'll be, but they're awesome anyway.

ClarkShizzlemyNizzle - Ewing, Nance, Mookie, Houston. I think Mookie was a definite mistake, and I'm not hugely in love with Houston but assuming he does what he's told it works, but Ewing Nance backbone is so awesome that Mookie over better options doesn't matter as much.

capone0 - Dwight Christ, Tim Hardagay, Iggy, Steve Smith. Think this team is awesomely balanced, if a little raw, though it does lack the deep ball.

Team I would love if he didn't totally blow his 3rd round: Bobbo. Shaq, Eddie, and Brandon is so awesome why'd you have to go trade up for Coleman.
1 thing is you can still get good/great 3 point shooters in the latter rounds. Guys who don't do much other than bomb it are very readily available just need a couple to round out my team. I think the advantage of this league having so many seasons is your really going to have deep teams and you can fix your problems on the bench. Now the bench guys will have issues but they don't have to play a lot of minutes.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 08:26 AM   #10087
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,316
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Like I said, I don't know a ton about Lever, but at first glance I absolutely hate the pick for this team offensively. I think you don't really need a true PG with Lebron on the team. What you need are shooters who can space the floor and hit open shots imo.
This was about the time I first moved to Denver, and I think I can offer a bit of insight. First, those Nugs were like this years Woyas on crack. Doug Moe was a big proponent of wearing teams out, and getting into your offense before your opponents had time to get set. It was quite a successful system, but they never quite reached the promised land.

Anyway on Fat. He was a tremendous driver-finisher/kicker of the ball. I don't think you can compare him to Kidd because JK is more of a player that has a knack for delivering the ball perfectly without a lot of penetration, whereas Fat used confusion and his own offense to get other guys open. Rebounding wise, he was a lot like Kidd in that he used it to trigger the break. Defensively he was pretty special iirc, with great on the ball D and awesome in the passing lanes.

Nugs announcers always called him our version of Oscar Robertson, and his stats were close. During his best year he averaged ~ 19/8/7, although those numbers are obviously going to be inflated because Denver ran at such a breakneck speed and would often take bad shots if guys were in position for the board.

I think Fat would probably be something like a 15/5/6 guy in a normal system, with greater shooting efficiency and equal, if not better defense. That's still pretty freaking awesome...

I'm warming up to the pick though because I'm not sure there is as much need for a spot up guy. If horizon's team had a major post game, which they don't, I'd say a shooter is more valuable. As it stands they've now got two awesome penetrators, an all world shooter, and a decent cleanup guy. Offensively that's going to be a tough cover... Defensively it depends on how you view Emeka's game, and to be honest I haven't seen him enough to form an opinion.

[edit] After a bit of thought, I'm completely sold that this is a great pick.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-03-2008 at 08:43 AM. Reason: nug luv
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:06 AM   #10088
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 18,272
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Fat mfing Lever. About time. The list of guys that have put up a 18/8/8 season looks like this: Jordan/Magic/Fat. That's it. Insane. Value at this point, I think he could have been taken as a slight reach in the 3rd, good value in the 4th, and a total steal in the 5th.

Awesome pick.

D
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:18 AM   #10089
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by D104 View Post
Fat mfing Lever. About time. The list of guys that have put up a 18/8/8 season looks like this: Jordan/Magic/Fat. That's it. Insane. Value at this point, I think he could have been taken as a slight reach in the 3rd, good value in the 4th, and a total steal in the 5th.

Awesome pick.

D
A couple things wrong with this:

1. Selective end points. Why did you stop at 18/8/8? Why not 20/7/7?
2. Ignoring efficiency. Fat jacked up 16-18 shots per game during those years. Scoring 20 points on 17 shots isn't so hot, and you're adding him to a team with Lebron (20+ shots per game), Drazen (16 shots per game), Horace (10 shots per game) and Okafor (12 shots per game). He's the 5th best shooter on the team but he takes more shots than most #1 options.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:21 AM   #10090
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,316
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Holy cow Fat!
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:27 AM   #10091
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 18,272
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Jeez, if I can't use selective endpoints, what's the point of stats?

But I looked at his stats and saw the 8reb/8ast season and then just plugged in his points into bref and those were the names that came up. I know, the pace, but I think its still pretty impressive.

Add in the fact that he was an great defender, and it seems like a great pick to me.

D
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:33 AM   #10092
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,316
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by D104 View Post
Jeez, if I can't use selective endpoints, what's the point of stats?

But I looked at his stats and saw the 8reb/8ast season and then just plugged in his points into bref and those were the names that came up. I know, the pace, but I think its still pretty impressive.

Add in the fact that he was an great defender, and it seems like a great pick to me.

D
I think the pace has a lot to do with his efficiency and inflated stats. Those Nugs pretty much shot when they had a sliver of daylight, so Fat is going to have more points/assists/rebs/steals than he would in a normal system, but he'll also be less efficient given the number of shots. I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be a 15/5/5 guy with a TS around 55% in a normal system. That's still pretty awesome at this point in the draft.

Plus anyone who can go 31/16/20/6 in a 100-96 game is a pretty valuable teammate, methinks.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:46 AM   #10093
fanmail
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
fanmail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Crown Town
Posts: 32,629
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Fat Lever is ******ly sick value in round 5. Nicely done. Not a perfect fit with LBJ as others have said, but it def will work.
fanmail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:48 AM   #10094
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,035
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanmail View Post
Fat Lever is ******ly sick value in round 5. Nicely done. Not a perfect fit with LBJ as others have said, but it def will work.
I was hoping he fell off the map and got him as a backup, great value now though.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 09:50 AM   #10095
tdarko
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tdarko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 13,183
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergsz View Post
I didn't quote your numbers because I don't dispute your assertion that Shaq outplayed both Seikely and Mutombo. What I dispute is your conclusion that since Shaq outplayed them both, it doesn't matter by how much he outplayed them. I really don't see how you can argue that your team's chances of winning don't improve if you hold the opposing center to 21 points on 53% shooting instead of 28 points on 62% shooting.

In actuality, I think Rony is a fine pick here. I just don't follow your logic of "well, I can't get a center as good as Shaq anyway, so it doesn't matter just how much worse than Shaq he is." The dropoff between Mutombo and Seikely is very substantial, as it should be between a 1st-rounder and a 5th-rounder. And that difference in quality matters a lot, even if they both get outplayed by the Shaqs and Hakeems of the world.
And I agree that there is a huge drop-off between Deke and Rony, we are talking 5 rounds here ldo. The drop-off hasn't been what I am talking about. I am saying that being able to play an effective transition game w/ a center that can outrun the traditional centers is the way to go. This is a hypothetical situation, you have the ability to build whatever you would like--you don't have a brand new franchise like the late 80's Miami Heat that were awful and Rony Seikaly had carry them on his back. This pick was made for team reasons not player available reasons.

The difference in quality would matter if Rony was 7'2 275 not 230 at age 24 and played a style like the best center available currently. A lot of you are looking at the pick like it is Rony vs. <insert legend center> but you can't think this way. You have to beat those centers w/ your entire team dynamic not the centers that have never been able to beat them...ever.
tdarko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:03 AM   #10096
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I think the pace has a lot to do with his efficiency and inflated stats. Those Nugs pretty much shot when they had a sliver of daylight, so Fat is going to have more points/assists/rebs/steals than he would in a normal system, but he'll also be less efficient given the number of shots. I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be a 15/5/5 guy with a TS around 55% in a normal system. That's still pretty awesome at this point in the draft.

Plus anyone who can go 31/16/20/6 in a 100-96 game is a pretty valuable teammate, methinks.
Not buying this argument at all. From age 25 to age 29, Fat Lever was ALWAYS took the 2nd most shots of any Nugget behind Alex English. The only time someone other than Alex English out shot him was in his age 24 season (Calvin Natt, ldo).

In 1986-87, he shot 600 more time than the next guy.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:07 AM   #10097
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,035
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
Not buying this argument at all. From age 25 to age 29, Fat Lever was ALWAYS took the 2nd most shots of any Nugget behind Alex English. The only time someone other than Alex English out shot him was in his age 24 season (Calvin Natt, ldo).

In 1986-87, he shot 600 more time than the next guy.
The thing is in the 5th round your going to get a guy with a huge hole in his game. Obviously Fat is pretty inefficient, but he's one of the best teams guys of the era (I know they played fast), he passed and rebounded pretty damn well for a guard. I know for his team he probally could have used a more efficient scorer but you can get low volume high efficiency guys on the bench. I still think going for value can't hurt now rather than filling holes, it's going to be harder later to get good players and easier to fill holes with good role players.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:20 AM   #10098
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

He didn't pass too well, though. That was an illusion of pace. He rebounds well, he passes okay, and he's a chucker. He's a shoot first guy who can't shoot.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:22 AM   #10099
horizon
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,501
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
He didn't pass too well, though. That was an illusion of pace. He rebounds well, he passes okay, and he's a chucker. He's a shoot first guy who can't shoot.
how do you explain his Ass/to ratio?
horizon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 10:28 AM   #10100
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,316
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
Not buying this argument at all. From age 25 to age 29, Fat Lever was ALWAYS took the 2nd most shots of any Nugget behind Alex English. The only time someone other than Alex English out shot him was in his age 24 season (Calvin Natt, ldo).

In 1986-87, he shot 600 more time than the next guy.
That's really not what I'm arguing. The point I'm trying to make is that Fat would be a lower volume/higher efficiency guy in a normal system. XXXXXXX preached quick shots and offensive rebounds, so often Fat would pass to someone who wasn't in the best position to shoot, but did it anyway. Because of this, fat's rebounding and assists are a bit inflated. Even if his assists came off lower percentage shots, they were still there in abundance due to the sheer volume of shots taken. Likewise for his shooting--Fat took a bunch of bad shots because the offense he ran dictated it. I don't think the quantity of his shots in relation to the team would change in a different system, but I do think the quality of those shots would increase.

Last edited by Seadood228; 06-03-2008 at 10:35 AM.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive