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Old 06-03-2008, 12:39 AM   #10001
tbach24
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

10kth reply! hehehe
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:41 AM   #10002
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by vixticator View Post
Yeah, I asked because he has the first starting 5. Dunno which post 1980 title squad is considered the worst (Detroit 04? idk). I'm wondering if any team will be able to match any of those champions--or if any of them would DEFINITELY be the best team in the NBA now. I think it's an interesting question. There probably will be a few that meet this criteria before it's over. Doesn't help that imo the Jordan team kind of sucks lol.

On paper, I have to think the first Rockets team was the worst champ....pretty much Hakeem and role players.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:43 AM   #10003
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
On paper, I have to think the first Rockets team was the worst champ....pretty much Hakeem and role players.
on paper, how could it not be the most recent pistons?
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:43 AM   #10004
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
Who cares? With 3 years spans we can have much more complete teams. Not one team in this league of all 24 year olds could win the championship against a great (actual) title team. If you drafted a young guy you can have him as a young guy on your team (you can even be spotted two years of expected potential)...I mean, if we are going to invest like 4+ Months on this thing, we may as well make it as cool as possible. If you picked D-Will, or CP3, you just can't put them on your team as a veteran. What is wrong with that? What were we going to do when our players got into their 30s anyway? How were we going to deal with it? IMO when the draft is finished we should choose which 3 year span we want from each of our players (this will give owners a chance to further show off basketball knowledge and creativity) and then have both owners and draft spectators rank (seed) the teams and we will then run a playoffs. If the 40th ranked team matches up well against the 1st ranked team, we can vote on who wins the 7 game series or whatever.

Please imagine a team with all 24 year olds...

It would be all young cocky kids with little or no leadership skills fighting to be successful on their teams. No one would be able to realize a role (great teams have great role players) and games would basically play like it was the All-Star Rookie Vs. Sophs game. Games would be sloppy and most of the players we are drafting because of their great potentials OR great careers would not become the players we think they are. By the time our players reach mid-30s our league will be a complete debacle as we will have to argue and guess as to whether Grant Hill or Penny Hardaway definitely would have gotten injured or whether they can continue to play. We would also have to speculate that all the Durant's and D-Will's would definitely have had long, bountiful careers (which we cannot know). Note that its is much less of a stretch to just spot them a couple of years of improvement than it is to spot them entire Hall of Fame careers.

Believe me guys, we can make this work in a way that it will not drastically hurt any of the GMs...
I think this is the 3rd time I've said this now, but....

You can't change the rule because people drafted based upon the age 24 rule. It would change players' values drastically in some cases. Nobody is debating which would be best to have done from the start. Everyone, except you, seems to realize that you simply can't change it now once people have already drafted based upon the rules in place.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:45 AM   #10005
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by sergsz View Post
I also hate the Stackhouse pick, and especially the fit. You actually had me intriguied about your team after taking Bosh and Baron, but you really had to round it with good role players, not more inefficient would-be #1 options.
this.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:46 AM   #10006
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tdarko View Post
Since Deke was going to get pounded by Shaq just as Rony was going to as well. To the degree doesn't matter now does it?
This, sir, is why you are wrong. It very much does matter. But thanks for at least being condescending.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:47 AM   #10007
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
You mentioned the 1st round centers, I just brought up a specific one that you mentioned. But way to cherry pick the stats.

Rony was 13/7 against Shaq, but shot 38%! I didn't even check the others but can probably expect similar deficiencies.

Either way, it's difficult to argue against Rony until others have been taken. But I don't think the argument that you are picking a center based on his ability to run on a break is a valid one... it just happens too rarely, particularly on a team where that person is the team's leading rebounder.
Rony- 16.1/10 .503%
Ewing- 21.5/11.2 .499%

Rony- 14.3/9.7 .443%
DRob- 21.7/11.8 .460%

Rony- 12.9/8.2 .500%
Hakeem- 24.4/12 .544%

Those are the three best after Shaq. That isn't awful. What do you expect? Shaq is going to make everyone not named Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing look bad. You also have to remember that these are numbers over a career too, Seikaly had a much different career than all of these guys we are comparing, he went from being able to grab 20+ boards at times as well as big scoring games to 2 point games and just awful production after Miami which really brings a lot of those numbers above. Whereas the first round centers are the best of the best b/c the were great but great for a long time.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:47 AM   #10008
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
Buddy, no way you're that annoyed. I have 10 posts tops on this subject. Also, b/c you are obviously not reading my post seriously you are giving a false response to it. You have not provided one specific example of who would be hurt and how.

Also respond to these problems:

1. Having no veteran leadership/all players being the same age (this is idiotic)

2. Having to spot young players entire careers.

3. How will we deal with the Penny's and G-Hill's later in the simulation?
1. I don't understand why this is a problem. Its not like these teams are actually going to be competing against real NBA teams. We're simply drafting for the fun of it and to debate players. Who care if theres no vet leadership????

2. No clue what this means, but again we're just drafting in order to stir debate and argue about which players were/are more valuable.

3. We've already been through this a ton, and I don't want to go through the debate again....Lets just say that its been discussed and move on.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:47 AM   #10009
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

also, to tdarko's defense, i really don't think seikaly would have been available in 30 picks, so if this was the guy he envisions in his 'system' then the trade up was probably worth it.

although i generally think adamantly arguing impossible/improbable points regarding your own team (health, usage, hypotheticals, etc) is kind of trivial, because it usually only gets people to form bias against you
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:48 AM   #10010
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by vixticator View Post
Where does b-ref explain wtf the advanced stats mean? (I'm a newb)

Stackhouse appears to suck major balls on those metrics.
replying as I go through the thread, so just in case nobody has answered this for you yet:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:52 AM   #10011
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by sergsz View Post
This, sir, is why you are wrong. It very much does matter. But thanks for at least being condescending.
You have no idea why I was being condescending? Re-read your original post.

I do like how I show you the numbers and you completely omit everything in the post except my statement, which can always be refuted if never backed up.

Sorry you don't want your pick in the middle of this but Deke isn't beating Shaq or any of the big 3/4 after that. You can't beat a Shaq team w/ Shaq in his prime playing inside out. No chance. In this hypothetical at least.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:53 AM   #10012
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
also, to tdarko's defense, i really don't think seikaly would have been available in 30 picks, so if this was the guy he envisions in his 'system' then the trade up was probably worth it.

although i generally think adamantly arguing impossible/improbable points regarding your own team (health, usage, hypotheticals, etc) is kind of trivial, because it usually only gets people to form bias against you
QFT.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:54 AM   #10013
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

KLJ- To be honest though, it is kind of fun talking about this stuff.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:56 AM   #10014
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tdarko View Post
Rony- 16.1/10 .503%
Ewing- 21.5/11.2 .499%

Rony- 14.3/9.7 .443%
DRob- 21.7/11.8 .460%

Rony- 12.9/8.2 .500%
Hakeem- 24.4/12 .544%

Those are the three best after Shaq. That isn't awful. What do you expect? Shaq is going to make everyone not named Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing look bad. You also have to remember that these are numbers over a career too, Seikaly had a much different career than all of these guys we are comparing, he went from being able to grab 20+ boards at times as well as big scoring games to 2 point games and just awful production after Miami which really brings a lot of those numbers above. Whereas the first round centers are the best of the best b/c the were great but great for a long time.
Fair enough, and those stats are better than I expected given the first ones I looked up. I'll reserve any further points until the next few guys I had ahead of Rony have been taken.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:57 AM   #10015
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
Kenyon Martin is Stackhouse bad. I can't believe how inefficient he is, considering all the oops Kidd fed him.

Or maybe it's just the really awful FT shooting.

edit: at least you got a solid defender before the double microfractures
+1

I went to his stats page expecting him to be insanely efficient, yet he wasn't even close. Yet another example of how our eyes can decieve us when watching a game but the stats get us back in line.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:58 AM   #10016
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Well, your eyes anyways.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:59 AM   #10017
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
moose,

he was bad even with Reggie averaging 20 a game.
Not really a counterpoint.

O'Neal's usage has been in the 25-35% range. He's not good enough to pull this off efficiently. It doesn't matter if Reggie was on his team, because however the other 70% of shots were taken, O'Neal was still asked to play way above himself offensively.

I don't expect him to have higher than a 15% usage rate on my team. Also, he's never had teammates that can set him up and get him the ball in his scoring zone half as well as my team can.

It seems really fair to me that we should assume O'Neal's efficiency numbers would skyrocket on my squad.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:01 AM   #10018
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Looking back on those Nets teams though, they weren't that good offensively like I remembered, but had a couple #1 years in a row defensively. Shows how good Kidd and KMart were defensively.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:01 AM   #10019
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by vixticator View Post
Is it possible the Jordan team is worse than the other two? Eh, prob not... but I don't really like it.
the reverse snake obviously hurt him the most, and I think he really didn't have many steals fall to him at his later picks....theres a big luck factor in drafts like this, and I just don't think he ended up being very lucky. I'm trying to come up with a better team he could've taken, and while there are a few options, its somewhat tough.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:03 AM   #10020
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
yeah perhaps I'm underrating... But come on, Camby, Josh, and Howard... none of those guys are going to make it easy for MJ to get points.

MJ is a high volume/low efficiency guy, I think you hurt him a lot by pairing him with high volume/low efficiency.
huh? Jordan is most definitely a high volue/high efficiency guy.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:04 AM   #10021
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
Not really a counterpoint.

O'Neal's usage has been in the 25-35% range. He's not good enough to pull this off efficiently. It doesn't matter if Reggie was on his team, because however the other 70% of shots were taken, O'Neal was still asked to play way above himself offensively.

I don't expect him to have higher than a 15% usage rate on my team. Also, he's never had teammates that can set him up and get him the ball in his scoring zone half as well as my team can.

It seems really fair to me that we should assume O'Neal's efficiency numbers would skyrocket on my squad.
I agree with all of this, except for the "skyrocketting" part. But I also think that the same argument could be made for most teams that have depth. Except for perhaps teams like Steroid Boys, given that he has so many ball-stoppers...
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:05 AM   #10022
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I wouldn't have traded the pick, but would've gone with Schrempf, Dalembert, and probably Terry.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:06 AM   #10023
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
replying as I go through the thread, so just in case nobody has answered this for you yet:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
huh? Jordan is most definitely a high volue/high efficiency guy.
the Assani carpet bombs... that Bobbo has quit.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:07 AM   #10024
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tdarko View Post
I love the Natt hate, tells me a lot.

lol, you guys scratch you heads (wrongly) then pick Perkins, Stack, Mahorn, Kenyon and Juwan bahahhaha JUWAN HOWARD lol. Dude has stolen 137 million from the NBA so far in his career.

This thread is comical at times.
wtf hated on Natt? Most people had never heard of him but said that his stats looked good.
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:11 AM   #10025
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
In case anyone had any doubts about Hoford being a terrible pick, I give you LaMarcus Aldridge as exhibit A as to why it was.
I think Charles Oakley going later in that round was Exhibit A, and this should be Exhibit B.
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