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Old 06-01-2008, 11:40 PM   #9776
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

How would it be angle shooting if we actually had a set way of doing it? Thats angle shooting? Wanting to know how things will be judged and picking my team accordingly? Give me a break.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:41 PM   #9777
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I think it's as simple as "all things considered (i.e. short term, long term, injuries, etc), which franchise would you most like to own" and we all publicly force rank all 40 teams and add up the points (40pts 1st, 1pt 40th).
This is pretty much what I think.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:42 PM   #9778
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you pick based on making the best team for now and the future, not because you're trying to angle shoot based on how we're going to judge it
+1

Our judging it should simply be a poll that lists the rule "build for now and the future"(but say it exactly how I said it in the initial rules) and then let people vote for which team is the best. Maybe do a drafters only vote too just for kicks.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:42 PM   #9779
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

or Clark's idea of ranking seems good too
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:43 PM   #9780
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
+1

Our judging it should simply be a poll that lists the rule "build for now and the future"(but say it exactly how I said it in the initial rules) and then let people vote for which team is the best. Maybe do a drafters only vote too just for kicks.
Good thing I didn't propose this like 5 times.

-1000000 for the angle shooting comment.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:44 PM   #9781
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Public rankings plus explanations would be pretty fun (meaning lots of debate). I don't think we'd have to necessarily limit it to league participants either.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:47 PM   #9782
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Guys stop discussing this, it is totally killing the thread. Lets just wait until 2 months from now and spend 2 weeks fighting over it then.

This angle shooting disgusts me. To think someone wants to know what criteria his team will be judged on BEFORE he makes his picks. Shocking.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:50 PM   #9783
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

So people would rather talk about ranking teams than actually talk about the teams as currently composed? I'll spur up another debate then:

Iverson/Wallace/Thorpe/Granger vs. Deke/Gilbert/Scrhempf/Gay

Which do you like better?
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:51 PM   #9784
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
How would it be angle shooting if we actually had a set way of doing it? Thats angle shooting? Wanting to know how things will be judged and picking my team accordingly? Give me a break.
so hostile.

irl GMs aren't making decisions "well only next year, 4 years from now, and 8 years from now count".. we're trying to build a healthy, successful franchise, year in year out.

And given Assani's assessment in the rules "guys aren't guaranteed to put up the same #s/be injured/etc in any given year", it doesn't make much sense to then go look up 28 year old stats to assess that team.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:52 PM   #9785
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Guys stop discussing this, it is totally killing the thread. Lets just wait until 2 months from now and spend 2 weeks fighting over it then.

This angle shooting disgusts me. To think someone wants to know what criteria his team will be judged on BEFORE he makes his picks. Shocking.
because once we decide that we're going to judge a team at age 24, age 27, age 30, half of the people are going to pick an age and go on an bb-ref easter egg hunt trying to find all the players who did well at that specific age.

or more drastically, if we were to judge teams based only on their Ortg and Drtg, some people would draft ONLY based on this stat.

completely against the spirit of what this is about.

and notice how i do this without trying to win the argument by belittling you (although one could argue that this last statement, in fact, serves that purpose. but whatever)
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:01 AM   #9786
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Good thing I didn't propose this like 5 times.

-1000000 for the angle shooting comment.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:03 AM   #9787
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Celtics vs. Rockets 1981 game 1 on NBATV right now. Zomg the old ads and intros are so money.


Bill Russell doing color and looking younger than Greg Oden!
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:03 AM   #9788
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
So people would rather talk about ranking teams than actually talk about the teams as currently composed? I'll spur up another debate then:

Iverson/Wallace/Thorpe/Granger vs. Deke/Gilbert/Scrhempf/Gay

Which do you like better?
If Gilbert is healthy, then I go with the second one. Considering injuries, probably the first I guess though.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:06 AM   #9789
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Celtics vs. Rockets 1981 game 1 on NBATV right now. Zomg the old ads and intros are so money.


Bill Russell doing color and looking younger than Greg Oden!
LOL Bird averaging 25/14/5 in the playoffs heading into the series.

Also a big laugh at the vital Mike Dunleavy Sr. vs. Chad Ford matchup.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:06 AM   #9790
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

It's nearly the end of the 4th round!

Which picks do you like best this round?
1. Mike Miller/Allan Houston- he's such an amazing shooter and his defensive deficiencies are made up for by the fact that KG/Nance and Laimbeer/Ewing are on this team (hey Assani!)
2. Larry Johnson- guys are underrating him, but he had a 10 year career where he stayed relatively healthy (only missed significant time in one season) and ranged anywhere from alright to very good. Plus this is a good fit for him. Talented team and he'll contribute to their already good offense plus play solid D (boy this team is great on D).
3. Danny Granger- I love Granger. He'll be at least one guy to help Iverson out on the offensive end on this team.
4. Calvin Natt- Still haven't heard of him, but I like the fact that this team is looking to run and gun with a smaller lineup.
5. Emeka Okafor- Gives LBJ a solid option to pass to in the post in addition while solidifying this front court.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:17 AM   #9791
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Mods, please edit in my Ruday Gay writeup into the draft-only thread:

Round 4; Pick 155 - Rudy Gay


Rudy Gay is a very young guy who has already shown that he can be a very effective player in the NBA. Last year he was a 20 ppg scorer on an awful team with a TS% of .547. That TS% may not seem that great to you, but for a 21 year-old who is the highest usage guy on a very poor team, that is very very impressive. Rudy is very versatile offensively: he can hit the 3 (.351 career shooter), can hit a mid-range jumper, and can finish around the basket. Defensively, he is a little harder to judge. His DRtg numbers have been bad, but that is very much a team-dependent stat. Looking at his per-36 numbers paints a much more promising picture (4.3 DRB, 1.3 stls, 1.1. blks, 3.0 PFs in his first two years in the league). Rudy seems to have all the physical attributes required to be an effective defender: length, quickness, athleticism. Players typically improve at the "mental" aspects of defense as the get older - so I think Rudy has some potential in this area, though I will concede that it is debatable whether he is the type of player who will ever put in the necessary amount of effort to be an elite defender.

Rudy played mostly at the 3 for the Grizzlies last year, but I was actually thinking of using him at the 2. He certainly has the skillset to succeed at that position offensively. Defensively, I would like some advice. Do you think Rudy has enough quickness to cover most 2s? I think he does, but I am definitely willing to listen to someone who has watched more Memphis games than I have. Playing him at the 2 and Detlef at the 3 would give me a very tall team, which would help both in creating mismatches on offense and contesting shots on D. However, with Detlef's and Gilbert's versatility, I can play Rudy at the 3 as well.

I've now put two good outside shooters around Gilbert, guys who can knock down the 3-ball if the defense collapses on Gilberts' drives. Also, with Gay's age and offensive potential, I have given my team an insurance policy in case Gilbert's injury problems flare up. Just as Gilbert will be hitting his late 20s and risking missing games due to injury, Gay will be hitting his peak. Based on his NBA performance so far, Gay in his peak looks to be a damn good Plan B as a #1 scoring option.

Team so far:
Dikembe Mutombo
Gilbert Arenas
Detlef Schrempf
Rudy Gay
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:18 AM   #9792
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
So people would rather talk about ranking teams than actually talk about the teams as currently composed? I'll spur up another debate then:

Iverson/Wallace/Thorpe/Granger vs. Deke/Gilbert/Scrhempf/Gay

Which do you like better?
1st team, ahem. But I do like team 2 also. If I had picked Deke 1st I wonder how it would have shaped up.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:19 AM   #9793
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Celtics vs. Rockets 1981 game 1 on NBATV right now. Zomg the old ads and intros are so money.


Bill Russell doing color and looking younger than Greg Oden!
this is awesome. NBAtv is probably the best channel ever.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:23 AM   #9794
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
I think it's as simple as "all things considered (i.e. short term, long term, injuries, etc), which franchise would you most like to own" and we all publicly force rank all 40 teams and add up the points (40pts 1st, 1pt 40th).
I like this idea, either just as Clark proposes it or this:

initial round determines top 16, then we go to multiple polls for tourney-style determination of winnar.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:24 AM   #9795
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I am gone for 2 days, and 2p2 ****s up my avatar (and others) - can someone explain this? Alright, going to post my thoughts on all the picks, and then go back and read allllllllll the replies:

Jason Richardson

I was hoping no one would mention him and somehow he'd land to me. Continuing the trend of SGs who have range and are efficient, I knew he'd get plucked soon. I mean, this guy is a bulk shooter WITH terrific numbers - Nicholas neglected to mention the only season in which he put up sub-usual numbers were last year DUE to his injury. Further, he's played in both fast and slow paced offenses (GSW, Charlotte) and has performed well offensively in both.
He's very athletic (solid block numbers for a 2) and really great value at this stage. The thing that doesn't make sense though - and I'm sure others have mentioned this - you have Joe Johnson. Jason Richardson is Joe Johnson with a little more leaping ability, a little less court vision, and a slightly longer track record. Both have performed well as #2 options in their team in the same role: Bigtime shot maker. This just seems like an awkward fit, and if you plan on using JJ as your PG this is a mistake. If you plan on bumping JRich to the 3, depending on matchup, this could be a mistake. Regardless, next pick to form out the starting 5 will be vital to Nicholas.

Brent Barry

Another 2 who is maddingly efficient, was sickly athletic in his prime, is a playmaker, and just a stud offensively. I'm not sure who I like more (Jrich or Brent mother****ing Barry) but both are similar players. I do like THIS fit a LOT more though, namely because neither KJ nor 'nique have sick range, so BB will help immensely. I think JRich is a slightly better defender, but I'm not sure if stats back that up.
Also, I know this team is going to be run and gun, and I think BB can do that - 2 back 2 back slam dunk champs picked, slam dunk champ = athletic!.... Etc. I'm sure I'm just repeating what others have said.

Chris Kaman

I wondered where Kaman would go. He's a rarity - he specializes in post game, but isn't good at anything other than that. He didn't strike me (either statistically or visually) as working well off a PnR, he doesn't have a great midrange game, and he's not fast/athletic to run up and down the floor. He missed some games this year too, so he has questionable injury concerns. Frankly, as a 24yr old, he was deemed a ~bust, and it was only this year (where he wasn't THAT good) did people think of him in a much better light. With Brand, his rebounding isn't that good - the loss of Brand bumped his per 36 numbers up ~2 boards a game. (+3% reb rate fwiw)

I see in your writeup that you're putting Daughtery at the 4, so I'm not sure if picking Kaman he really accomplished either best fit or need. I think the caveman here is a quasi reach, and I don't like the pick... for now.

Kevin Durant

I'm sure Tbach has written miles of posts about how great: A. His team is B. His pick was C. All his needs are met etc etc.

I'll be frank though: Durant COULD be great, but this year he was very average. You get him THIS year, and he is going to be a huge hole playing major minutes. I also feel you could've grabbed him in a later round, but I could be proven wrong. Funny writeup though.

Doug Christie
Very solid defensive stopper who can spike 3s. There are a lot of these guys (well, solid amount) and I think Doug/Jackie are one of the better ones. I'm not sure if perimeter stopper was a need, since Manu could've handled the better player by himself, but it does give you flexibility. Interesting team too - I can't say I love the pick, but I don't dislike it either. Interested in reading what people think about it though.

Bill Cartwright

At first I LOLed because I thought he drafted a different Bill. (a Bill that won't get picked but I'll leave him unnamed in the event he does) After I realized there were 2 different Bills, I think this is a great pick. He brings some injury concerns, but as you mention in your writeup, with TMac you're not guaranteed of anything, so you're hoping your team is all healthy - and if so - you'll be very good. I can't disagree with that.

Monta Ellis

I think I wrote a small snippet about this pick, that basically Monta is a poor man's DWade. So, with DWade, this is a big question mark. We'll see what happens tho - and I do like Monta as a player.

Mike Bibby

I had (and still have IMO) a few better PGs on my list. Bibby at his best is an average defender, who got hyped as a "clutch" shooter, and really was never a great passer or shooter. Even his "best" (25-27) was just above average, which sorta epitomizes his career. I suppose at this point there just aren't too many studs left, so Mike Bibby is decent value, but I have concerns about your team makeup (Bibby, Finley, Melo, Yao just seems so dysfunctional!). Defense will not be stressed in your coaching camp imo.

Danny Granger

I just don't think Granger is good. A few people have been talking to me (specifically Tbach) about how they're in love with Danny G, but he's not that good. (In fact, there was better value behind him, like the newly-drafted Josh Howard). Also, you note he played in 80/80 games, but for the record, an NBA season is 82 games.
I don't hate the pick, I just think for your needs/wants you passed up better players (such as JHow) and will leave it at that. AI sure does appreciate the scoring help tho IMO.

Calvin Natt

Dude was on my list. Sigh. A stud who got forgotten because he played a while back. Just a fantastic pickup this late in the 4th round. Nice job TD.

Larry Johnson

Grandmama! Injury concerns are large, but since he's the only guy with major injury concerns for your squad, you should be alright. I like the pairing w/ GP/Sheed/Tyson as well. I'm liking your team alot. (My summaries are getting smaller and smaller...)

Sam Perkins

I always thought of Perkins as a little *****. Really soft annoying player. Due to that, I hate the pairing on your team, because it seemed like you had the most badass team around. In terms of value and need though, Perkins is a winnah'.

Rudy Gay

Well, he can't really do anything well - yet. I hate the pick because of Schrempf - everything Gay does, Detlef does it better. And they play the same position. And neither is a good defender. You're really counting on Deke to do a lottttttttttttt of blocking.

Josh Howard

The drug stuff is a bit distracting, but how can anyone say he's not a 2way player? Aside from the playoffs, he has been a ~#2 option on a finals caliber team, has guarded the best player on the opponents team at a decent clip, is quite durable, etc. He's a guy who should've gone 20+ picks ago. (People possibly were scared by both his recent playoff run as well as drug stuff) I guess he's not a no-risk player.

For your team, I just like him so much too. I think you have the first 5man team completed, and it will be interesting to see how you match up with others/compile a game plan!
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:44 AM   #9796
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm using multi quote to knock out all this stuff!
Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
sick pick, a lot better than a buncha centers taken before him
This is about Kaman - putting this to lead to the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Huh? Please define "buncha" and list said bunch.
I agree w/ Clark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Hes better than

Dalembert
PJ Brown
Brad Miller
Hot Rod Williams
Al Horford
Aside from "no he's not," I don't know what to say.

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Originally Posted by nath View Post
wait, really? how long have you been posting here?
Ok, I did know about Puzzles and Games, I lied, sorry Nath

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
I don't see Kaman falling off (barring injury of course), dude is a sick rebounder, good defender, good scorer (although should never be the #1 option like he was this year), has an underrated jump shot, and is very quick for his size.
well, the thing is, he does have some injury history; he's not a good scorer (although he's alright) - he's not a great defender or rebounder - his jump shot is actually pretty poor. I do agree he's quick for his size, although he's slow. (If that makes sense - he doesn't go up and down the court fast, but in the post, he has great footwork)


Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
I don't really like stats, but Kaman is so goddamn inefficient it's almost as scary as his haircut.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by battschr View Post
I have Daugherty...I can afford another big who is less than great at scoring...I need interior defense/rebounding. I feel Kaman provides that. I have a nice perimeter defender in Pippen, and nice interior defender in Kaman, and two offensive-minded players that won't kill me on D in Ellis and Daugherty. I think my team is shaping up fairly nicely.
Ok, with this in mind I think you made a solid pick, because the things he does well, you covet. That said, people who say he's better than a few guys drafted are flatout wrong.

Clark wrote in as well:

"Thanks for the list.

Kaman > Dalembert, Hoford imo.
Brad Miller, PJ > Kaman
Not sure about Hot Rod."

I think he's better than Horford for sure. But that just shows the reach. I totally disagree about Sammy D, in fact, Sammy D may be the best player on that list. Or Brad Miller. I don't know enough about Hot Rod to speculate.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:49 AM   #9797
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Oh ya I forgot, Kaman is better than Biendrins as well.
Err, possibly. Very different big men though. VERY different. One creates on his own decently and does not finish well when someone else creates for them; the other cannot create on his own whatsoever but is a stud at finishing what others put on his plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
People sleep on PJ way too much. I'll give Epi a pass since he's probably young and is a BOS homer, so therefore he's only seeing the PJ that is a shell of his former self. Dude was one of the best post/all around defenders in the league, and a good jump-shooter for his position.
I agree, I remember PJ on the Hornets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
for the sake of full disclosure Kaman is one of Epip's pets in our fantasy league. So there's a homer element to his zealous love for him.
Makes sense, thanks for this tidbit

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
JRich: i think underrated on this board. i used to hate him with a passion, but he's pretty good (and decently efficient, nothing special). the fit might be a little odd, but who knows. not ridiculously durable, but not more injury prone than the rest of the people who jump high for a living.

Brent Barry: too early, imo. he's pretty efficient, plays above average defense, shoots well and can play both the guard positions. you state that he was good but never got playing time, but the only time he had more then 14 points per 36 minutes was his first few years in the league with the clippers. about the same durability as JRich in terms of jumper (read: ankle) injuries.

Kaman: I had him higher than Horford, Biedrins and Brown. He has some pretty good skills and I like the pick.

Durant: Was curious where he'd go, interesting fit to this team, imo (for the reasons Dudd posted). Not sure I like the fit in terms of your team's window.
I'm surprised you like JRich then decide BB is too early. I think they're very compatible players, just one is white, one is black.

I am surprised you rated Kaman higher than Brown...

Agree about KD.

Quote:
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Nope, you get him at his current age.
Exactly.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:52 AM   #9798
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I just don't think Granger is good. A few people have been talking to me (specifically Tbach) about how they're in love with Danny G, but he's not that good. (In fact, there was better value behind him, like the newly-drafted Josh Howard). Also, you note he played in 80/80 games, but for the record, an NBA season is 82 games.
I don't hate the pick, I just think for your needs/wants you passed up better players (such as JHow) and will leave it at that. AI sure does appreciate the scoring help tho IMO.
Well, I disagree. Granger at 24 > Howard at 24, and I assume will continue to improve making him better than current Howard if he's not already better which I think he might be. Howard can score, but I also needed an efficient shooter in addition to just points and Granger is that and more. Yes, he played 80/82 thanks for that ldo.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:55 AM   #9799
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

for some reason I tend to think everyone playing O'Brien tends to get overrated. Maybe he's just a brilliant coach.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:57 AM   #9800
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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for some reason I tend to think everyone playing O'Brien tends to get overrated. Maybe he's just a brilliant coach.
Pierce?
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