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Old 06-01-2008, 10:27 AM   #9601
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

AC-Cobra and BigCat GO GO GO!!!
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:34 AM   #9602
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Josh Howard is a very very good pick this late in the draft.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:40 AM   #9603
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Could AC-Cobra's team beat any of the championship teams since 1980?
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:39 PM   #9604
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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assani in your list is MJ and Magic arguably two of the greatest players of all time

how bout

bill russell
jesus mchale
kareem
shaq
wilt
duncan
hakeem
I provided a detailed study which looked at championship teams. I do so subjectively(my choice for best player), objectively over the short term(Finals MVP) and objectively over the longer term(All Star over the course of the season). It was a pretty damn detailed post....

And your entire reponse is to list 7 great big men? Wtf does that prove? Yes, admit that there are 7(or more!!) great big men that have played the game. That doesn't change the fact that I just provided you with an entire essay's worth of information and facts that seem to disprove your point.

If you want to debate, thats fine. But come a little stronger than simply listing 7 players and not offering anything else.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:43 PM   #9605
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lets take a look at the best player on each of the team that won the title:

1979-80: Magic Johnson*
1980-81: Larry Bird*
1981-82: Magic Johnson*
1982-83: Moses Malone^
1983-84: Larry Bird*
1984-85: Magic Johnson*
1985-86: Larry Bird*
1986-87: Magic Johnson*
1987-88: Magic Johnson*
1988-89: Isiah Thomas*
1989-90: Isiah Thomas*
1990-91: Michael Jordan*
1991-92: Michael Jordan*
1992-93: Michael Jordan*
1993-94: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1994-95: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1995-96: Michael Jordan*
1996-97: Michael Jordan*
1997-98: Michael Jordan*
1998-99: Tim Duncan^
1999-00: Shaquille O Neal^
2000-01: Shaquille O Neal^
2001-02: Shaquille O Neal^
2002-03: Tim Duncan^
2003-04: Too Close To Call
2004-05: Tim Duncan^
2005-06: Dwyane Wade*
2006-07: Tim Duncan^

*guard/perimeter player
^big man/post player


Out of 28 years, NBA Champions 17 times had a guard as their best player and only 10 times had a post player as their best player(with the 2003-04 Pistons being too close to call). Obviously judging a team’s best player is extremely subjective, so lets take a look at some more objective criteria…

Here are the Finals MVPs of each year:

1979-80: Magic Johnson*
1980-81: Cedric Maxwell*
1981-82: Magic Johnson*
1982-83: Magic Johnson*
1983-84: Larry Bird*
1984-85: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^
1985-86: Larry Bird*
1986-87: Magic Johnson*
1987-88: James Worthy*
1988-89: Joe Dumars*
1989-90: Isiah Thomas*
1990-91: Michael Jordan*
1991-92: Michael Jordan*
1992-93: Michael Jordan*
1993-94: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1994-95: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1995-96: Michael Jordan*
1996-97: Michael Jordan*
1997-98: Michael Jordan*
1998-99: Tim Duncan^
1999-00: Shaquille O Neal^
2000-01: Shaquille O Neal^
2001-02: Shaquille O Neal^
2002-03: Tim Duncan^
2003-04: Chauncey Billups*
2004-05: Tim Duncan^
2005-06: Dwyane Wade*
2006-07: Tony Parker*

*guard/perimeter player
^big man/post player

19 out of the 28 teams had their Finals MVP come from one of the guard positions, while only 9 of them were big men.


Here were a list of players that made the all star team that year on each of the championship teams:

1979-80: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*
1980-81: Larry Bird*, Robert Parish^
1981-82: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*,
1982-83: Maurice Cheeks*, Julius Erving*, Moses Malone^
1983-84: Larry Bird*, Kevin McHale^, Robert Parish^
1984-85: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*
1985-86: Larry Bird*, Kevin Mchale^, Robert Parish^
1986-87: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*, James Worthy^
1987-88: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*, James Worthy^
1988-89: Isiah Thomas*
1989-90: Isiah Thomas*, Dennis Rodman^, Joe Dumars*
1990-91: Michael Jordan*
1991-92: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1992-93: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1993-94: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1994-95: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1995-96: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1996-97: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1997-98: Michael Jordan*
1998-99: No All Star Game due to Player’s Strike
1999-00: Kobe Bryant*, Shaquille O Neal^
2000-01: Kobe Bryant*, Shaquille O Neal^
2001-02: Kobe Bryant*, Shaquille O Neal^
2002-03: Tim Duncan^
2003-04: Ben Wallace^
2004-05: Tim Duncan^, Manu Ginobili*
2005-06: Shaquille O Neal^, Dwyane Wade*
2006-07: Tim Duncan^, Tony Parker*

Total: 29 guards, 24 big men. Also note that I counted James Worthy as a post player, although it may be debatable.


I could go on with other measures, but I think the point has been made. I will note that since, under my definition of post player and perimeter player, there are 3 perimeter players on the floor with 2 post players, it does indeed skew the stats a bit. However, my intention here is not to prove that guards are more vital or necessary as post players in order to win a title. I simply wanted to show that it is at least very close and that the cliché of “You need a great big man to win a title” is a myth and is no more true than “You need a great perimeter player in order to win a title.”

So where exactly did this myth of needing a great big man come from? It actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion, as there are two things necessary for a team to win a title and they both can be found in a great big man. Those two things are:

1. Post defense. A dominant post defender is worth much more than a dominant perimeter defender because they play a much more integral role in team defense. Whereas a guard’s main responsibility on defense is to play one-on-one and to rotate to the open man, the big man can make up for mistakes of his teammates on a regular basis. Also let me be clear that I’m not talking about gaudy block totals either(although they’re obviously not a bad thing), but rather I’m speaking of being in great position constantly and not allowing uncontested and/or easy field goal attempts. I could also tie in rebounding a bit here. The Phoenix Suns of recent years are a great example of a team that has had everything except this and faltered as a result(obviously they hope to change that with Shaq now in town).

2. The ability to get to the free throw line. No matter how good of a shooter you are, its simply too tough to constantly hit contested jump shots against NBA caliber defense. The ability to get to the rim and finishing strongly usually goes hand in hand with this as well. The Chicago Bulls of recent years were an example of a team that lacked this and suffered as a result.

Not only is there not a NBA Champ of the modern era that lacked either of these two things, but most of the teams that lost in the NBA Finals also had them as well! I’m sure someday there will be an exception. However, I think its fair to say that these two things should be the building blocks of any championship team and that lacking either of them severely cripples a teams’ chances.







So while Jordan may not have had a great big man, he did always have great post defense in Rodman and Grant. Notice that when Jordan didn't have one of these guys in 94-95, they got absolutely killed inside by the Magic in the playoffs and lost.

Here I'll bump my post again. And you'll notice that I did indeed include Shaq, Duncan, McHale, and Hakeem(and any other big man that fits the criteria) on the list.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:46 PM   #9606
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by vixticator View Post
Could AC-Cobra's team beat any of the championship teams since 1980?
It's hard to say... there really isn't a lot of star power there though. Webber was a bit of a reach in the first and Dumars was a reach that early in the second. I don't know if you were asking because AC-Cobra's is the first team done and you just want to know if teams in this league will be able to compete in general with the historically great teams (most will not) or just saying AC Cobra has sort of a mediocre squad (which I think is the case, sorry ).

Imagine if the team was this:

Deron Williams
Rolando Blackman
Josh Howard
Elton Brand
Rick Smits

He could have had that, and that looks like a very, very strong team that easily could have won an NBA championship depending on the year. I think this was just a case of very good late round drafting that is somewhat ruined by mediocre at best 1/2 rounds. Rolando Blackman/Smits/Howard were all very very good value picks, and even as constructed his team is very efficient.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:48 PM   #9607
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Ya when u bring up false statements like saying my argument's main point was that Barkley said McHale was the toughest player he played vs so therefore McHale is the best PF in this draft, then yes of course i'm gonna call u out wtf
My point was that you're using ESPN/TNT analysts' opinions as proofs of your arguments. My point had absolutely nothing to do with debating McHale, yet somehow you turned it into another McHale debate, lol.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:50 PM   #9608
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
It's hard to say... there really isn't a lot of star power there though. Webber was a bit of a reach in the first and Dumars was a reach that early in the second. I don't know if you were asking because AC-Cobra's is the first team done and you just want to know if teams in this league will be able to compete in general with the historically great teams (most will not) or just saying AC Cobra has sort of a mediocre squad (which I think is the case, sorry ).

Imagine if the team was this:

Deron Williams
Rolando Blackman
Josh Howard
Elton Brand
Rick Smits

He could have had that, and that looks like a very, very strong team that easily could have won an NBA championship depending on the year. I think this was just a case of very good late round drafting that is somewhat ruined by mediocre at best 1/2 rounds. Rolando Blackman/Smits/Howard were all very very good value picks, and even as constructed his team is very efficient.
ya I agree, I made the point earlier in this thread where the first 3 rounds (especially first round) were by FAR the most important rounds in the draft, and if u messed up in either of these rounds it really hurts ur teams chances of winning drastically.

Give me a team who owned the first 3 rounds and messed up the last 7 over a team who messd up the first 3 rounds and owned the last 7 any day of the week.

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 06-01-2008 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:52 PM   #9609
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Just look at the draft, Shaq is considered the 2nd best player to build around in the era and Pippen went at what 20+ although he could have gone higher. Post defence and getting to the line as well as efficiency is why Shaq is more valuable then a guy like Pippen who I'm also a big fan of. Jordan had some great teams there is no doubt and he was integral in winning a lot of those titles with that being said, until he had Pippen he could not win. And Kobe without Shaq and no without Pau/Bynum for this season he couldn't get his team over the hump.
Ok, and in the same way Pippen went #25 in this draft(and really should've gone 15-20) while Gasol went in the 2nd round. OMG JORDAN COULD NEVER WIN WITHOUT ANOTHER TOP 25 PLAYER BUT KOBE IS PROVING THIS YEAR THAT HE CAN!!!

Do you not see how this is faulty logic? When evaluating their situations, look at their entire teams including bench and coaching, then determine how good they had it. Don't just look at one other teamate.

Regardless, I'm not arguing Kobe>Jordan at all. I'm just saying that the 'OMG Shaq!" argument sucks.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:53 PM   #9610
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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My point was that you're using ESPN/TNT analysts' opinions as proofs of your arguments. My point had absolutely nothing to do with debating McHale, yet somehow you turned it into another McHale debate, lol.
I used it as a throw in comment, it was far from the "base" of my debate, it just helped solidify the fact that someone who played against him shared the same views I did.

When someone like u claims I used it as my main point, of course i'm going to respond, why the heck would I let u guys continue to put words into my mouth which has happened at least 20 times during this thread?

What if I said something that I claimed u said which wasn't true, would u just ignore that I said that? No you wouldn't, of course ur going to respond.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:53 PM   #9611
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by NopairParker View Post
I had LJ on the radar, but didnt want to add another inconsistant injury prone guy to the team. He was a great player tho, I also passed up on Bibby which I wanted to take really badly, but I think his lack of defense would really hurt my team since my team isnt too strong on defense anyways.

I also had 2 other guys in mind that I think will drop to me the next time I pick, hopefully. This is going to get fun, when we start building our bench players, right now the picks are kind of standard.
YEah Bibby's defense was a real killer for me when evaluating him. Its not just bad for this draft, its bad for the current NBA as well. With more starpower in this draft, its hard to have a poor defender on your team imo.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:54 PM   #9612
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
It's hard to say... there really isn't a lot of star power there though. Webber was a bit of a reach in the first and Dumars was a reach that early in the second. I don't know if you were asking because AC-Cobra's is the first team done and you just want to know if teams in this league will be able to compete in general with the historically great teams (most will not) or just saying AC Cobra has sort of a mediocre squad (which I think is the case, sorry ).

Imagine if the team was this:

Deron Williams
Rolando Blackman
Josh Howard
Elton Brand
Rick Smits

He could have had that, and that looks like a very, very strong team that easily could have won an NBA championship depending on the year. I think this was just a case of very good late round drafting that is somewhat ruined by mediocre at best 1/2 rounds. Rolando Blackman/Smits/Howard were all very very good value picks, and even as constructed his team is very efficient.
FWIW my first round pick was a coin flip between Webber and Brand, although I still like my Webber choice because of the great passing I get out of my frontcourt with him and slightly better defending.

Dumars was a bit of a reach but no trade offered at the time was to my liking and he was the player I wanted. I still like the fact that he can score and distribute and good levels and was a pretty great defender as well.

As I said in my writeup of the Smits pick, Ive always planned on my team being very versatile and although I dont pick for a while now I still think the four guys left to add to my rotation (as long as things go to plan) are really going to play major parts and make this team look great as a whole.
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:59 PM   #9613
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
It's hard to say... there really isn't a lot of star power there though. Webber was a bit of a reach in the first and Dumars was a reach that early in the second. I don't know if you were asking because AC-Cobra's is the first team done and you just want to know if teams in this league will be able to compete in general with the historically great teams (most will not) or just saying AC Cobra has sort of a mediocre squad (which I think is the case, sorry ).

Imagine if the team was this:

Deron Williams
Rolando Blackman
Josh Howard
Elton Brand
Rick Smits

He could have had that, and that looks like a very, very strong team that easily could have won an NBA championship depending on the year. I think this was just a case of very good late round drafting that is somewhat ruined by mediocre at best 1/2 rounds. Rolando Blackman/Smits/Howard were all very very good value picks, and even as constructed his team is very efficient.
I think you guys are really really underestimating how good Chris Webber was. Do you not realize that Webber took Bibby, Christie, Peja, an old Vlade, and a few undrafted players to within one OT of winning the title(seeing as how the Lakers swept the Nets, I'm pretty sure the Kings would've been considerable favorites there)?

Webber>Brand imo for sure.

I will admit that he should've taken Deron, but I think about 15 drafters should've taken Deron, and Deron was one of the steals of the draft, so its unfair to single him out there.

I think he was in a bit of a tough draft spot and had poor luck overall with few steals falling to his spots.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:04 PM   #9614
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

AC,

I like your team, really. Very, very efficient, everyone can score and none have Melo syndrome of not being able to pass when they get the ball, and you actually have a very good passing team. However, I think teams will be able to pack it in a bit because you don't have a lot of 3pt shooters and none of your players are really stud 1on1 guys so given that you are going to need to have a very team oriented offense it sorta sucks not to be able to stretch the floor. Also your interior defense is mediocre, your wing defense is above average but not elite.

So your team does some things either above average or at an elite level, but the things you don't do well (shoot 3 pointers, interior defense) are things that I think hurt.

I know this sounds like a reversal of what I was saying with Wade/Monta btw, but I don't see that team as playing the same sort of ball that this team will (where the offense runs through a bunch of players rather than just 2 guards).
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:05 PM   #9615
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Assani,

Yeah looking over Webber's stats just now I think I underestimated him. However, I think some of his strengths are lost on this team because he lacks 3 point shooting which was abundant on those Kings teams, and having Webber kick it out to those guys was a major part of their success.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:06 PM   #9616
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think you guys are really really underestimating how good Chris Webber was. Do you not realize that Webber took Bibby, Christie, Peja, an old Vlade, and a few undrafted players to within one OT of winning the title(seeing as how the Lakers swept the Nets, I'm pretty sure the Kings would've been considerable favorites there)?

Webber>Brand imo for sure.

I will admit that he should've taken Deron, but I think about 15 drafters should've taken Deron, and Deron was one of the steals of the draft, so its unfair to single him out there.

I think he was in a bit of a tough draft spot and had poor luck overall with few steals falling to his spots.

I think Webber is a little underrated here too, but not much better than Brand. Plus Webber is a pretty big injury risk. I love Deron, but are you saying he should have been top 25 overall?
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:10 PM   #9617
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm supposed to be impressed that Webber took a team of 5 players already drafted in this draft to a Western Conference Finals? Seriously that was a pretty sweet team there. Webber was def very good, but not because of that. Also Brand > Webber.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:10 PM   #9618
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
He could have had that, and that looks like a very, very strong team that easily could have won an NBA championship depending on the year. I think this was just a case of very good late round drafting that is somewhat ruined by mediocre at best 1/2 rounds. Rolando Blackman/Smits/Howard were all very very good value picks, and even as constructed his team is very efficient.
Considering his number one option is Chris Webber, I find it hard that this team will be very efficient.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:12 PM   #9619
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Of course I gave some intangible data, but I also gave a bunch of tangible data which backed up my points. Unlike u stat geeks, I realize there isn't only tangible data in basketball. It's a combination of both, when u are arguing for any player and u only bring up tangible data and nothing else u look like a fool. Should I just ignore the fact that McHale came off the bench for 5+ years which effects his production, that he is a great defender, that he played on a broken foot which shortend his career, or his great postmoves etc? I mean are u freakin serious dude?

For example, arguing for Jordan being the best player ever, if u don't bring up how he is probably the greatest postup SG ever, his great defense or anything else that is intangible then u are a stat geek with a lot worse basketball knowledge than I thought because u should still bring up non tangible things if u know what ur talking about.
bump for assani
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:15 PM   #9620
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

No, Deron wen #49...I'm saying I would've taken him about 15 spots earlier. I like him over everyone drafted #37 or later except Pierce, Moncrief, and Kemp. And I probably like him over a few of the higher first round guys too. 15 was just an estimation I made without even looking at the draft board....basically I just see him as a steal. I could easily see him considered in the Payton/Kidd class when his career is done and look where they went.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:15 PM   #9621
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Webber in his prime was better than brand in his prime. As a coach you have more options with webber, you can pretty much run any kind of offense with him being such a great passer, low post player, good range on his jumper. The only place brand is better is offensive rebounding and blocking shots. You can argue that webber could have been a better off rebounder as well if he kings didnt run their offense through him all the time, so he was either shooting or setting up the shooter most of the time so he wasnt in position for as many rebounds as brand was.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:15 PM   #9622
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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bump for assani
I'M NOT ARGUING MCHALE ANYMORE.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:22 PM   #9623
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm supposed to be impressed that Webber took a team of 5 players already drafted in this draft to a Western Conference Finals? Seriously that was a pretty sweet team there. Webber was def very good, but not because of that. Also Brand > Webber.
Webber's approx prime numbers: 25/10.5/4.5/1.7/1.5 on 54% TS

Brand's appox prime numbers: 19/9.0/2.5/2.0/0.9 on 56% TS


And no he didn't just reach the WCF. He took the Lakers to Game 7 overtime, and they would've been huge Finals favorites if they had won that. And none of his temates were high draft picks in this draft, and the highest one(Divac) wasn't in his prime anymore.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:23 PM   #9624
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Brand is better offensively, more efficient, better rebounder, they're both great on defense, and webber is a better passer. It's close, but Brand > Webber.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:25 PM   #9625
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Webber's approx prime numbers: 25/10.5/4.5/1.7/1.5 on 54% TS

Brand's appox prime numbers: 19/9.0/2.5/2.0/0.9 on 56% TS
I like how you just made up stats here, well done Assani. Why am I not surprised that you did this again?
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