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Old 05-31-2008, 09:53 PM   #9551
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
I have his ridiculous 26 pt a game season with 60 percent shooting and over 80 percent from the line.

Then I have him coming back the next year (after his foot surgery while still playing somewhat hurt) putting up 22 pts a game with 60 percent shooting and basacally 80 percent from the line.

I also have the previous two seasons (before the 26 pt a game with 60 percent shooting season) where he shot .570+ and scored 20-22 pts a game while coming off the bench and before his prime.

I also have that he had the best post moves in NBA history and was one of, if not the hardest players to guard in the post EVER ontop of the fact he also had a great jump shot and shot ft's incredibly well for a bigman.

I also have that he was a great defender.

He was also a very good rebounder (although stats don't show it since he played with 2 great rebounders, anyone who saw McHale thinks so).


Add that all up and a case can easily be made that he would have been the best PF ever had he not played on broken his foot.
He asked for tangible data, and you respond with a post where over half of it is completely intangible.
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Old 05-31-2008, 09:59 PM   #9552
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

love the LJ fit for cowboy's team, was very curious to see where he would go in this.
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Old 05-31-2008, 09:59 PM   #9553
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:03 PM   #9554
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I've never heard of Natt

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
I have never heard of Natt
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Originally Posted by BJLTNYK View Post
OK I'll admit I have never heard of this guy.
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who the **** is calvin natt?
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Seriously, who the **** is Calvin Natt? Did you just make up a name and then hack into B-Ref and plug in some good stats?
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I'm looking at drafting Billy Moth with my next pick. (see, I can make up names, too!)

LOL, talk about a sleeper!!!
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:03 PM   #9555
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Natt has some crazy numbers - I have no idea who he is, but still very solid value in the late 4th IMO. I was looking @ Grainger as well (so naturally I think he's solid value). LJ was my guy tho, and I'm glad he was still on the board.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:04 PM   #9556
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:05 PM   #9557
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

LJ is pretty sick value here.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:07 PM   #9558
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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assani a dominant big has soooooooooo much more value than a dominant wing
lets take a look at the best player on each of the team that won the title:

1979-80: Magic Johnson*
1980-81: Larry Bird*
1981-82: Magic Johnson*
1982-83: Moses Malone^
1983-84: Larry Bird*
1984-85: Magic Johnson*
1985-86: Larry Bird*
1986-87: Magic Johnson*
1987-88: Magic Johnson*
1988-89: Isiah Thomas*
1989-90: Isiah Thomas*
1990-91: Michael Jordan*
1991-92: Michael Jordan*
1992-93: Michael Jordan*
1993-94: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1994-95: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1995-96: Michael Jordan*
1996-97: Michael Jordan*
1997-98: Michael Jordan*
1998-99: Tim Duncan^
1999-00: Shaquille O Neal^
2000-01: Shaquille O Neal^
2001-02: Shaquille O Neal^
2002-03: Tim Duncan^
2003-04: Too Close To Call
2004-05: Tim Duncan^
2005-06: Dwyane Wade*
2006-07: Tim Duncan^

*guard/perimeter player
^big man/post player


Out of 28 years, NBA Champions 17 times had a guard as their best player and only 10 times had a post player as their best player(with the 2003-04 Pistons being too close to call). Obviously judging a team’s best player is extremely subjective, so lets take a look at some more objective criteria…

Here are the Finals MVPs of each year:

1979-80: Magic Johnson*
1980-81: Cedric Maxwell*
1981-82: Magic Johnson*
1982-83: Magic Johnson*
1983-84: Larry Bird*
1984-85: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^
1985-86: Larry Bird*
1986-87: Magic Johnson*
1987-88: James Worthy*
1988-89: Joe Dumars*
1989-90: Isiah Thomas*
1990-91: Michael Jordan*
1991-92: Michael Jordan*
1992-93: Michael Jordan*
1993-94: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1994-95: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1995-96: Michael Jordan*
1996-97: Michael Jordan*
1997-98: Michael Jordan*
1998-99: Tim Duncan^
1999-00: Shaquille O Neal^
2000-01: Shaquille O Neal^
2001-02: Shaquille O Neal^
2002-03: Tim Duncan^
2003-04: Chauncey Billups*
2004-05: Tim Duncan^
2005-06: Dwyane Wade*
2006-07: Tony Parker*

*guard/perimeter player
^big man/post player

19 out of the 28 teams had their Finals MVP come from one of the guard positions, while only 9 of them were big men.


Here were a list of players that made the all star team that year on each of the championship teams:

1979-80: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*
1980-81: Larry Bird*, Robert Parish^
1981-82: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*,
1982-83: Maurice Cheeks*, Julius Erving*, Moses Malone^
1983-84: Larry Bird*, Kevin McHale^, Robert Parish^
1984-85: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*
1985-86: Larry Bird*, Kevin Mchale^, Robert Parish^
1986-87: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*, James Worthy^
1987-88: Kareem Abdul Jabbar^, Magic Johnson*, James Worthy^
1988-89: Isiah Thomas*
1989-90: Isiah Thomas*, Dennis Rodman^, Joe Dumars*
1990-91: Michael Jordan*
1991-92: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1992-93: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1993-94: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1994-95: Hakeem Olajuwon^
1995-96: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1996-97: Michael Jordan*, Scottie Pippen*
1997-98: Michael Jordan*
1998-99: No All Star Game due to Player’s Strike
1999-00: Kobe Bryant*, Shaquille O Neal^
2000-01: Kobe Bryant*, Shaquille O Neal^
2001-02: Kobe Bryant*, Shaquille O Neal^
2002-03: Tim Duncan^
2003-04: Ben Wallace^
2004-05: Tim Duncan^, Manu Ginobili*
2005-06: Shaquille O Neal^, Dwyane Wade*
2006-07: Tim Duncan^, Tony Parker*

Total: 29 guards, 24 big men. Also note that I counted James Worthy as a post player, although it may be debatable.


I could go on with other measures, but I think the point has been made. I will note that since, under my definition of post player and perimeter player, there are 3 perimeter players on the floor with 2 post players, it does indeed skew the stats a bit. However, my intention here is not to prove that guards are more vital or necessary as post players in order to win a title. I simply wanted to show that it is at least very close and that the cliché of “You need a great big man to win a title” is a myth and is no more true than “You need a great perimeter player in order to win a title.”

So where exactly did this myth of needing a great big man come from? It actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion, as there are two things necessary for a team to win a title and they both can be found in a great big man. Those two things are:

1. Post defense. A dominant post defender is worth much more than a dominant perimeter defender because they play a much more integral role in team defense. Whereas a guard’s main responsibility on defense is to play one-on-one and to rotate to the open man, the big man can make up for mistakes of his teammates on a regular basis. Also let me be clear that I’m not talking about gaudy block totals either(although they’re obviously not a bad thing), but rather I’m speaking of being in great position constantly and not allowing uncontested and/or easy field goal attempts. I could also tie in rebounding a bit here. The Phoenix Suns of recent years are a great example of a team that has had everything except this and faltered as a result(obviously they hope to change that with Shaq now in town).

2. The ability to get to the free throw line. No matter how good of a shooter you are, its simply too tough to constantly hit contested jump shots against NBA caliber defense. The ability to get to the rim and finishing strongly usually goes hand in hand with this as well. The Chicago Bulls of recent years were an example of a team that lacked this and suffered as a result.

Not only is there not a NBA Champ of the modern era that lacked either of these two things, but most of the teams that lost in the NBA Finals also had them as well! I’m sure someday there will be an exception. However, I think its fair to say that these two things should be the building blocks of any championship team and that lacking either of them severely cripples a teams’ chances.







So while Jordan may not have had a great big man, he did always have great post defense in Rodman and Grant. Notice that when Jordan didn't have one of these guys in 94-95, they got absolutely killed inside by the Magic in the playoffs and lost.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:08 PM   #9559
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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love the LJ fit for cowboy's team, was very curious to see where he would go in this.
LJ was one of the 4 on my list.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:09 PM   #9560
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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LJ was one of the 4 on my list.
glad i can help
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:17 PM   #9561
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I considered LJ where I took Roy until I realized he was injured at 24 and never recovered. Also, it was a recurring back injury not a freak accident.

If you could get him at 22 his value would be Sick^Sick for the first few years of this draft.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:20 PM   #9562
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Larry Johnson was my favorite player growing up, mostly because I lived in the Charlotte area at the time. I don't remember much about his game (he shot 3's? lol) but I do recall the whole Grandmama stuff heh. I stopped following basketball about same time he got traded to NY until recently.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:39 PM   #9563
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I loved Larry Johnson as a kid too. Esp at UNLV. He was on my list, but not as good a fit for my team as Granger, who is a perfect fit imo.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:40 PM   #9564
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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OK I'll admit I have never heard of this guy. Stats look ok but WTF
he's the one guy I had on my list that I had never heard of nor seen play.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:42 PM   #9565
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

4 point play!
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:44 PM   #9566
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:45 PM   #9567
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lol
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:47 PM   #9568
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

LJ should have played games dress as Gradmama imo. If he's allowed to do it in this league obv best pick so far.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:47 PM   #9569
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ok, I've gotten a few more PMs and its become clear that my decision is not the feeling of the majority. Even though I strongly disagree with changing the rules like this, I'll respect everyone's wishes:

Zeke Zawoluk is indeed available to be drafted.

This, however, will be the only exception to the rules, and that is absolutely final.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:49 PM   #9570
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I don't get it.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:50 PM   #9571
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Grandmama
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:50 PM   #9572
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ya'll just making up names now. Starting with Calvin Natt... who doesn't exist afaik.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:52 PM   #9573
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Rofl, best crossdresser ever imo. Rodman could be argued.
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:56 PM   #9574
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Ok, I've gotten a few more PMs and its become clear that my decision is not the feeling of the majority. Even though I strongly disagree with changing the rules like this, I'll respect everyone's wishes:

Zeke Zawoluk is indeed available to be drafted.

This, however, will be the only exception to the rules, and that is absolutely final.
Is there some kind of inside joke going on here that I don't get? Dude was a mediocre player for like 3 seasons in the 50s? WTF?
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:56 PM   #9575
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

for a while me and my friends always did this thing where we made an L by putting our left fist to our right elbow. We'd pump it up and down and say "once LJ gets into his thang dey ain't NO stoppin' him!" No idea how it started but it stuck for some time.

I love guys like LJ and Kemp who just get totally excited whenever they dunk on someone.
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