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Old 05-30-2008, 12:35 PM   #9251
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

really wish it was my pick right now for time reasons, i'm thinking the guy i want will still be there for me so not sure if its worth trading up, sigh.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:36 PM   #9252
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
I think we draft as if they are going to be put on the court. My point was that I don't think you'll have nearly as many problems finding guys to score in this league because of depth. That SA-NO example is a great one, because it describes just what I'm saying (may want to edit your post just in case). With that team, once their first few guys got shut down, options became very limited because the Hornets had very little in the way of depth. I don't think that's the case with the teams we are drafting, because for the most part you will have more guys who can score.
Yes there will be alot of guys that can score but guys that can score at the end of games in big pressure situations on a consistent basis are few and far between. Take Peja for example. Sure the guy shoots good and puts up great regular season stats but how unclutch is this guy? 2002 Western Conference Finals Game 7 anyone? Game 7 vs Spurs this year anyone? When the clamps get put down and it's a spot that you HAVE to score a basket I would never give this guy the ball. He's showed on multiple fronts that he can't be counted on when the pressure is at it's highest. That's why I'll take a guy like Reggie over Peja even if Peja has better geeky stats (PER, TS%, etc..) than Reggie. Now I didn't look it up so I don't know if he does or not but I'm just saying even if he did I'd take Reggie. So that's why I'm saying are we looking at stats and indexes mostly or actual on the court ability in real situations? One guy might look great on paper but when it comes down to the nitty gritty he disappears.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:40 PM   #9253
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes there will be alot of guys that can score but guys that can score at the end of games in big pressure situations on a consistent basis are few and far between. Take Peja for example. Sure the guy shoots good and puts up great regular season stats but how unclutch is this guy? 2002 Western Conference Finals Game 7 anyone? Game 7 vs Spurs this year anyone? When the clamps get put down and it's a spot that you HAVE to score a basket I would never give this guy the ball. He's showed on multiple fronts that he can't be counted on when the pressure is at it's highest. That's why I'll take a guy like Reggie over Peja even if Peja has better geeky stats (PER, TS%, etc..) than Reggie. Now I didn't look it up so I don't know if he does or not but I'm just saying even if he did I'd take Reggie. So that's why I'm saying are we looking at stats and indexes mostly or actual on the court ability in real situations? One guy might look great on paper but when it comes down to the nitty gritty he disappears.
I think you are right about this as far as late game situations are concerned. And not to be nitty, but Reggie has some of the best stats on this board as far as efficiency is concerned. To do that, as well demonstrate the ability to be nasty in big games is so valuable, which is why I will continue to defend where Reggie went.

Still, there are a lot of players who get their own shots at will who aren't clutch, as well as players who don't that are.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:43 PM   #9254
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think you are right about this as far as late game situations are concerned. And not to be nitty, but Reggie has some of the best stats on this board as far as efficiency is concerned. To do that, as well demonstrate the ability to be nasty in big games is so valuable, which is why I will continue to defend where Reggie went.

Still, there are a lot of players who get their own shots at will who aren't clutch, as well as players who don't that are.

Yeah I wasn't saying that Reggie did or didn't (I admitted I didn't know and quite frankly don't care and think it's overrated) I was just saying that if he didn't I would still take him over say a player like Peja who did have higher ratings. I think in alot of cases people are making this too difficult. The eye test is all that's needed for 75% of these picks.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:47 PM   #9255
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

J-Rich is a guy I personally really overrated, now probably underrate a bit. His 3-ball is nice but his 2ptFG% sorta blows, except this last season where he was overall very good. Maybe playing under Nellie chuckfest hurt his %s a bit.

Overall I kinda like the fit on this team. He does a lot of the same stuff JJ does, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:50 PM   #9256
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BiiiiigChips View Post
Yes there will be alot of guys that can score but guys that can score at the end of games in big pressure situations on a consistent basis are few and far between. Take Peja for example. Sure the guy shoots good and puts up great regular season stats but how unclutch is this guy? 2002 Western Conference Finals Game 7 anyone? Game 7 vs Spurs this year anyone? When the clamps get put down and it's a spot that you HAVE to score a basket I would never give this guy the ball. He's showed on multiple fronts that he can't be counted on when the pressure is at it's highest. That's why I'll take a guy like Reggie over Peja even if Peja has better geeky stats (PER, TS%, etc..) than Reggie. Now I didn't look it up so I don't know if he does or not but I'm just saying even if he did I'd take Reggie. So that's why I'm saying are we looking at stats and indexes mostly or actual on the court ability in real situations? One guy might look great on paper but when it comes down to the nitty gritty he disappears.
This is what I have been saying all along on this forum and everyone has been eating me up for it.

Stats cannot accurately judge a players importance or overall ability. Stats are for people who play fantasy basketball, not the real game. The real game is judged by watching and observing the player and how he performs in all situations. Yes a lot of situations have stats for them, but a lot are also left out.

For this leagues sake it is unfair to the older players to use my form of judging , but overall stats shouldnt count for a players rating. The reason we need to judge by stats in this league is because most of us havent seen any of the older players from the 80's play so we cant judge them from our experiance we have to use the stats as best we can.

Your point was great and you found a great comparison using peja and reggie, both are 2 worlds apart and peja doesnt even come close to reggie.

I would say the same about Lebron and Kobe

Carmelo and Iverson
Dirk and Duncan ( not that they are similar players, just the fact that one knows how to finish games and one doesnt )
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:55 PM   #9257
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Fair enough NPP, but I think that "clutchness" is a very difficult attribute to rate. Most of the time we judge this based on recent activity, but that's not always the case. Peja had critical shots earlier in his career, as has Dirk in recent years.

I'm guessing that these guy's ratio of clutch shots made/clutch shots missed are usually going to be in line with their true shooting percentages over time. Sure there are exceptions to the rule, Reggie Miller being one of them, but I don't think it's nearly as drastic as some make it out to be.

Also, I like the JRich pick. Nothing really special, but a decent fit and very solid value at this point.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:59 PM   #9258
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
but overall stats shouldnt count for a players rating.
I'm all for the "need to watch observe", I watch as much ball as anyone.. but this statement is absurd. Stats aren't just this made up thing. They're objective values placed on easy to calculate data. We can hem and haw about clutch player A with a 57% TS% versus not-as-clutch player B with a 60% TS%.. no one is saying it's perfect.

But you can't just throw AI's absurdly low FG% out the window and say "man watch this kid ball". Management isn't the only reason those Philla teams struggled. It's hard to win ball games when your go to guy dominates the ball and can't score in an efficient manner.

If anything, this year with Denver showed AI can thrive on a team with another great scorer. AI's #s are very good for a bulk-shooting 2. They're worlds better than anything he did in Philly. Which is why I'm not psyched with the direction fanmail is building that squad.


Quote:
Your point was great and you found a great comparison using peja and reggie, both are 2 worlds apart and peja doesnt even come close to reggie.
nor do they in the statbook. What's your point?
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:03 PM   #9259
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

BTW I think the Ron Harper pick shows that the Rip pick was a big reach.
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:10 PM   #9260
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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BTW I think the Ron Harper pick shows that the Rip pick was a big reach.
Please explain.. And I'm not saying that in a sarcastic way, I honestly want to know. I don't think their games are similar.
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:29 PM   #9261
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Please explain.. And I'm not saying that in a sarcastic way, I honestly want to know. I don't think their games are similar.
Its not so much that their games are similar, its anything you get from rip you can get from any number of players better. Harper rounds out this group nicely, if you wanted an efficient shooter to go with CP3 you could have gone with several players who were taken after Rip. If you want a more complete game you could go with Harper. I guess it would be more accurate to say Marjerle shows why its a bad pick, but Harper adds another player where if you and forgotten about thunder Dan you should have realized that there are still better players than Hamilton available.
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:55 PM   #9262
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

JRich and JJ seem pretty interchangable to me...not sure why you need two of the same guy.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:01 PM   #9263
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

also, i hope the pick gets to me by tonight before the C's because i'm not gonna be much on 2p2 after that until sunday evening at the earliest
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:09 PM   #9264
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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also, i hope the pick gets to me by tonight before the C's because i'm not gonna be much on 2p2 after that until sunday evening at the earliest
send a list to someone pls...
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:10 PM   #9265
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i'm in the middle of negotiations for a trade unfortunately but i'll try to work something out
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:16 PM   #9266
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

brent barry good pick. guy can make it rain.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:19 PM   #9267
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Thanks. Barry is perfect for what I want from a SG for my team.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:22 PM   #9268
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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JRich and JJ seem pretty interchangable to me...not sure why you need two of the same guy.
2 versatile wings that can create their own shot, shoot the long ball, play decent d, rebound and pass isn't a bad thing

i can bring specialists off the bench; i want my starters to be versatile if possible
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:23 PM   #9269
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm not sure if Dr. Zoidberg's team will be any good, but it should be extremely entertaining to watch.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:25 PM   #9270
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Wow Brent Barry...KC is gonna be pissed. I think it was seadood who posted the youtube and then I quoted it and we both deleted our posts. Then Assani comes in and mentions him at least twice. That's ****ing absurd.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:28 PM   #9271
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Now that Brent B has been picked, a brief recap of what happened last night.

TSC mentions Brent Barry.
Kidcolin goes on tilt because that's who he's been sleeping on.
Other posters aren't aware of why he's tilting, so they ask why.
Kidcolin tries to distract everyone in time to get the BB posts deleted by mentioning the LOST finale.
A brief LOST derail ensues.
Kidcolin goes along as best he can, offering up some of his own humor.

I guess you had to be there, but I found it very amusing.

[edit] I feel partially responsible since my link of the awesome Mark Jackson highlights prompted TSC to post the Brent Barry highlights unbeknownst of the rules. It sort of works out for me since adding BB to his team would have been pretty sick. Sorry KC.

Also, I like the pick. Brent was acutally brought in as a stopper for most of his career, even though his numbers actually show that he was much more than that.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:29 PM   #9272
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i almost picked him in the 4th. so ****ing pissed. I'll trade you bird.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:31 PM   #9273
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm taking Chris Kaman.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:32 PM   #9274
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm taking Chris Kaman.
sick pick, a lot better than a buncha centers taken before him
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:33 PM   #9275
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I have a player ready, but I need to talk trade with someone first.
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