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Old 05-30-2008, 11:25 AM   #9226
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BiiiiigChips View Post
Again how bad was 'Nique's defense? Did every one who he guarded torch him for 40? No. The guys who got 30 against every one else pretty much got 30 against him and the guys who got 15 against every one else pretty much got 15 against him. Now Pippen vs Wilkins is an interesting debate but Wilkins vs the other 5 I'm taking 'Nique every time. There are only so many elite scorers and if you look at championship teams that either had an elite scorer, an elite big man or both. You can always get a pretty good two way player later on in the draft. You can't get a guy that can take over a game later on in the draft though.
Who can really take over the game though at the swing position?

The thing is what is your definition of elite scorer. If your usage is so high you become an elite scorer it doesn't make you that much better, i.e. the only reason they become elite is because they shoot a lot. I don't think that's exactly the case with Wilkins but in comparison to let's say MJ, he could be considered a chucker in comparison to Jordan. Both have extremely high usage rates, but at Jordan's max he had a 60+% TS% which is rediculous high considering he didn't take that many 3s while Wilkins was in the 55-54% range at his peak.

I'll give you the guy can create his own shot and maybe didn't have the best teammates, but if that's the reason your using of why you should pick him I don't think it's that strong.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:28 AM   #9227
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Just catching up on all this thread, lot of action last night/this morning. I like Maggette alot, thats a good pick.

Thanks to tbach and bigchips for backing up AI/my team for me while I am away. Otis Thorpe can score inside, obviously I still need to draft a perimeter scorer here this round to help out AI on offense. Not to keep making the same points, but AI has had mostly mediocre offensive help until recently in Denver, and they won over 50 games in the toughest west in recent memory. Not saying they are great, but losing to the Lakers was not shameful.

I'm not saying it was a huge steal at 31, not 32 by the way. But I love having a guy who can take over a game, and has done so many times. The best way to help a small and quick point guard, yes point guard, is to provide him with stellar interior defense. Well I am loaded there. My D is a lock at this point. AI can create his own shot or penetrate and draw a foul or dish out to the wing. I don't have said wing scorer yet, but I pick shortly
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:35 AM   #9228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think you guys are getting a little too carried away with number crunching, efficency ratios and a bunch of other geeky stats.
+1 it really makes me wonder if these guys even watch the NBA sometimes
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:35 AM   #9229
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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1. He plays SG on offense, yet is too short to guard SGs on defense a lot of the time.
He averages 6+ apg for his career, he's more of a combo guard than a pure 2, and this is not a hard problem to address, you go with either a bigger stronger guy at the point who can guard 2s better or a 2 guard who handles the ball better than average. Alter your valuations slightly at one position and that's hard to build around?

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2. He shoots the ball a ton
And this is hard to build around, why? Ok so you don't draft another black hole at the two, but you have to make an adjustment or two for virtually any player taken outside of the top 15 in this draft.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:37 AM   #9230
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I really think you are underestimating the value of being able to take over a game offensively in the NBA and do it while creating your own shot which is something 'Nique could do.
+1
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:44 AM   #9231
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Assani, this is your warning. Don't do that again.
this was for the first mention. Now lose some draft slots for the second. Absurd. The dude who mentioned it isn't in this draft, probably didn't realize the rule.. a couple of guys quoted his post and they deleted it when I asked them to. Then Mr. InCharge walks in and completely disregards it completely just because he feels like it.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:44 AM   #9232
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He averages 6+ apg for his career, he's more of a combo guard than a pure 2, and this is not a hard problem to address, you go with either a bigger stronger guy at the point who can guard 2s better or a 2 guard who handles the ball better than average. Alter your valuations slightly at one position and that's hard to build around?



And this is hard to build around, why? Ok so you don't draft another black hole at the two, but you have to make an adjustment or two for virtually any player taken outside of the top 15 in this draft.
Ditto
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:47 AM   #9233
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The thing is what is your definition of elite scorer. If your usage is so high you become an elite scorer it doesn't make you that much better, i.e. the only reason they become elite is because they shoot a lot. I don't think that's exactly the case with Wilkins but in comparison to let's say MJ, he could be considered a chucker in comparison to Jordan. Both have extremely high usage rates, but at Jordan's max he had a 60+% TS% which is rediculous high considering he didn't take that many 3s while Wilkins was in the 55-54% range at his peak.
Everyone looks bad compared to Jordan, there's a reason he went first overall and won all those championships.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:47 AM   #9234
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

fair enough, but AI looks bad compared the next crop of scorers. He went about where he should I feel.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:48 AM   #9235
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Nicholas has been online all morning..

...

Viewing puzzles forum. (Didnt even know there was a puzzles forum)

TILT
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:49 AM   #9236
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

AI went at the *exact* spot he should've IMO. Like a mini-gap between the guys above him (where he would clearly belong except for the obvious knocks), and he's simply a better player than the guys below him.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:53 AM   #9237
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Everyone looks bad compared to Jordan, there's a reason he went first overall and won all those championships.
Of course, I used an extreme example. But there are a bunch of guys who can shoot well. Maybe not all that can create their own shot. My point is Wilkins isn't OMG amazing, he took a ton of shots, his FG% and TS% are good but not amazing. If the reason your picking him early is b/c he can take over games, I think the reason he can take over games is b/c he takes so many shots. I know their is a value of guys who can create their own shot vs guys who need a pick set for them and Dom definitely had that, but in comparison to others I don't think his value is really that great b/c he can take the game over.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:04 PM   #9238
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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this was for the first mention. Now lose some draft slots for the second. Absurd. The dude who mentioned it isn't in this draft, probably didn't realize the rule.. a couple of guys quoted his post and they deleted it when I asked them to. Then Mr. InCharge walks in and completely disregards it completely just because he feels like it.
+100000000
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:05 PM   #9239
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Nicholas has been online all morning..

...

Viewing puzzles forum. (Didnt even know there was a puzzles forum)

TILT
Did anyone PM him? If not SOMEONE PM HIM NOW BEFORE HE LEAVES FOR THE WEEKEND AND WE HAVE TO WAIT 3 DAYS FOR A PICK
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:06 PM   #9240
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Your mouse works right?
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:09 PM   #9241
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Of course, I used an extreme example. But there are a bunch of guys who can shoot well. Maybe not all that can create their own shot. My point is Wilkins isn't OMG amazing, he took a ton of shots, his FG% and TS% are good but not amazing. If the reason your picking him early is b/c he can take over games, I think the reason he can take over games is b/c he takes so many shots. I know their is a value of guys who can create their own shot vs guys who need a pick set for them and Dom definitely had that, but in comparison to others I don't think his value is really that great b/c he can take the game over.
Well not just that but just athletically he could do things that alot of guys just couldn't do. He could score with the best of the scorers and he was freakish athletically. Being able to take over in clutch spots is huge in the NBA that's basically what separates the good players from the elite level players. I bet the Hornets wish they had someone that could take the game over in Game 7 vs the Spurs instead of having Jannero Pargo shoot the ball every time down when the game was on the line. That's what happens when you don't have anyone that can take a game over in the clutch. You have Jannero Pargo deciding the game for you. On the contrary you have a guy like Kobe. Last night when the game got down to like 2 or whatever with just under 4 minutes left I told my friend, "watch Kobe won't pass again for the rest of the game" and I think he passed once because he pretty much had to. He took the game over. I'm telling you very few players can do that in high pressure situations when every one knows they are gonna get the ball.

Last edited by BiiiiigChips; 05-30-2008 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:10 PM   #9242
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

My take on the players who can "take over a game and get their shot at will.":

I think it's very valuable IRL, but perhaps less so in this league. No team in this draft will be better than most of the greats were 1-3, but where our teams will kill the others at is depth. So the lull in talent that teams have 4-12 is going to be negated in most part, accross the board these teams should theoretically have more guys that can get their shots, and more importantly get other guys their shots, meaning you'll have less of a need for someone who can take a game over... I think.

In a draft such as this, players who score and pass efficiently, even with a modest volume, are of greater value than high output guys who are less efficient. And players who can score in bulk and do it very efficiently (hi reggie) are of great value.

That said, I wouldn't classify AI as a low efficiency guy just because he'll have greater depth around him in this league. I think he does makes drafting a team for him more particular, but I also think that fanmail so far has done just that.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:11 PM   #9243
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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AI went at the *exact* spot he should've IMO. Like a mini-gap between the guys above him (where he would clearly belong except for the obvious knocks), and he's simply a better player than the guys below him.
I think alot of it is personal preference. I think he's good enough to be in the top 20 easily it's just that some people decided to go a different route. Alot of the knocks can be solved by taking control of the situation with the type of players you put around him.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:13 PM   #9244
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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AI went at the *exact* spot he should've IMO. Like a mini-gap between the guys above him (where he would clearly belong except for the obvious knocks), and he's simply a better player than the guys below him.
I agree that he went in a good spot, I don't agree that him being 'hard to build around' is a legitimate knock against him. His obvious flaws are TOs, and low efficiency.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:15 PM   #9245
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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My take on the players who can "take over a game and get their shot at will.":

I think it's very valuable IRL, but perhaps less so in this league. No team in this draft will be better than most of the greats were 1-3, but where our teams will kill the others at is depth. So the lull in talent that teams have 4-12 is going to be negated in most part, accross the board these teams should theoretically have more guys that can get their shots, and more importantly get other guys their shots, meaning you'll have less of a need for someone who can take a game over... I think.

In a draft such as this, players who score and pass efficiently, even with a modest volume, are of greater value than high output guys who are less efficient. And players who can score in bulk and do it very efficiently (hi reggie) are of great value.

That said, I wouldn't classify AI as a low efficiency guy just because he'll have greater depth around him in this league. I think he does makes drafting a team for him more particular, but I also think that fanmail so far has done just that.
Well I think that's the whole thing. Are we gonna compare these teams solely by numbers or the actual personnel and matchup problems that each player creates for the other team? I'm drafting my team as if it were a team that I was gonna put on the court.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:20 PM   #9246
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

nicholas has been PM'ed by me at least, go go go
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:22 PM   #9247
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

How do you not put Slam Dunk God on JRich's list of accomplishments?

Also won a title in college if that matters. Basically I <3 JRich.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:23 PM   #9248
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Well I think that's the whole thing. Are we gonna compare these teams solely by numbers or the actual personnel and matchup problems that each player creates for the other team? I'm drafting my team as if it were a team that I was gonna put on the court.
I think we draft as if they are going to be put on the court. My point was that I don't think you'll have nearly as many problems finding guys to score in this league because of depth. That SA-NO example is a great one, because it describes just what I'm saying (may want to edit your post just in case). With that team, once their first few guys got shut down, options became very limited because the Hornets had very little in the way of depth. I don't think that's the case with the teams we are drafting, because for the most part you will have more guys who can score.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:31 PM   #9249
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i picked jrich
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:31 PM   #9250
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

love the j rich pick the guys three point shooting is amazing
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