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Old 05-30-2008, 10:11 AM   #9201
Assani Fisher
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
By that case, I should be able to re-name a bunch of players that soon should be drafted that were already posted much earlier in the thread. But I won't, why? Because it's against the rules to do it at all
Yes because mentioning guys that havn't been mentioned in days is the exact same as quoting a post that was made exactly 30 posts ago...great point.

If a mod will edit my post, then let him. I can't edit it anymore as the time has run out. YOu want me to give myself a warning, ok.....


Assani, this is your warning. Don't do that again.



Happy now?
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:12 AM   #9202
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Wow, Iverson is absurdly underrated on these boards.
Agreed.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:13 AM   #9203
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I would've been happier if you, after all your crying and facist warnings hadn't mentioned a player in the first place, regardless of whether he had already been named, but since you did, this is the best possible solution, so even though you were asking facetiously, I am conditionally happy.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:14 AM   #9204
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Why does it matter if your best player is 6 feet or 8 feet? You have 9 other picks to put players around him. It's not a 1 on 5 league. I think you guys are getting a little too carried away with number crunching, efficency ratios and a bunch of other geeky stats. Iverson is easily one of the best two or three scorers from the guard position in the last 10 years or so. The #1 thing should be if the guy can play or not and he obviously can. The guy can do pretty much anything for you at the one or two. Obviously at 6'0 it's going to be tough for him to cover a big guard but that's fine because when he's on offense he's causing an even bigger headache for the opposition. The team he is on now is okay but they are going absolutley no where. They have no chemistry and play absolutely no defense. Melo looks as if he's turning into a malcontent and it doesn't look like the coach and management or on the same page. Allen Iverson is not the problem with that team as most who know the situation will say.
If he's so good why didn't you take him 7th overall? Also if he's so easy to build around why wasn't he picked sooner? Also nobody other than you is mentioning that it was steal at that pick. Maybe some of his biggest problems can be fixed but I'd still rather build around a lot of other players over him. Maybe it's just me, maybe I think he's overrated. He's a special player I just don't think he's that great.

Also of the guys selected in the first round, I don't think too highly of:

Reggie-Great pure shooter, but that's all he was. Sick clutch too, but I don't think he's first round talent.
Isiah-Great player just went way too high.
Wilkins-Eh..........
AI-Mentioned above.
Hill-Too many injury issues for me. At the top of his game he was amazing but I think he's injury prone rather than having multiple freak injuries.
Worthy-Nothing really special, still suprised he's in HOF.
VC-Knuckle head and inefficient player.

I'm also a huge UNC fan and I mentioned 2 players from UNC. Don't get me wrong I think VC and Worthy are good players just not top 40 in the last 30 years to build around.

Last edited by capone0; 05-30-2008 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:16 AM   #9205
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I pretty much agree with what BiiiiiiiigChips said, but want to say that Iverson doesn't have that much trouble guarding bigger guards a) because he usually takes on the smaller ones and b) because it's really difficult to put the ball on the floor against him.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:17 AM   #9206
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
I would've been happier if you, after all your crying and facist warnings hadn't mentioned a player in the first place, regardless of whether he had already been named, but since you did, this is the best possible solution, so even though you were asking facetiously, I am conditionally happy.
I'm really confused...

Someone mentioned a player

I quoted their post and said something about that player.



Why are you singling me out instead of the person who initially mentioned him? I really didn't change anything.

I realize that in the past, I would've given that person a warning and not quoted the post, but I've done the warning thing and I'm tired of playing police officer here. If you want to be in charge of this area, then I hereby grant you permission to give people 1 warning officially then dock them a few spots in the draft if you want. If you want to do this, then let me know and with every post after this one it'll be up to your discretion.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:18 AM   #9207
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

anyway, I'm off to bed....great job today everyone, tons of picks and good discussion. Draft is going great imo.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:20 AM   #9208
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I don't want to be in charge. I want people to be diligent in following a very important rule. IMO we shouldn't even be able to mention Kirk ****ing Penney because at that point you have to ask the question "where is the line?"

And I'm singling you out because if you had read the thread, another poster had already attempted multiple times to talk to the first offender, so it would be useless for me to do that.

Recently, another poster mentioned a player and the next 4 or 5 posts were "ahhh go back edit edit edit" so I'm not the only one who cares about this rule.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:26 AM   #9209
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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If he's so good why didn't you take him 7th overall? Also if he's so easy to build around why wasn't he picked sooner? Also nobody other than you is mentioning that it was steal at that pick. Maybe some of his biggest problems can be fixed but I'd still rather build around a lot of other players over him. Maybe it's just me, maybe I think he's overrated. He's a special player I just don't think he's that great.
Me not taking him at #7 doesn't make him any less of a player. In a draft like this I think you have to take an elite big if you have the opportunity because they are more rare than guards that can score. So no I'm never taking Iverson over Olajuwon at #7. Guard wise there are only 3 I'm a lock to take over Iverson and that's Kobe, Mike and Magic. After those three he's probably who I'm taking. I just look at the draft and where people went and to get one of the elite scorers of his time at 32 is pretty good value to me. Okay so he's a special player but on the other hand he's not that great. LOL ! Which one is it?

Last edited by BiiiiigChips; 05-30-2008 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:30 AM   #9210
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I pretty much agree with what BiiiiiiiigChips said, but want to say that Iverson doesn't have that much trouble guarding bigger guards a) because he usually takes on the smaller ones and b) because it's really difficult to put the ball on the floor against him.

Yeah I don't get it. It makes me wonder if some of these guys even watch the games. They act as if the opposing guard just gets the ball and posts up Iverson every trip down and scores 40 and he's just some huge defensive liability because he's 6'0. I think individual defenders especially ones that guard perimeter players in the NBA are highly overrated. Team defense is way more important. The bottom line is that I don't care how good of a defender you are you are never stopping an elite scorer in the NBA from getting his points. Ever. You might make them work a little harder I guess but the unguardable guys are unguardable for everyone.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:33 AM   #9211
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Me not taking him at #7 doesn't make him any less of a player. In a draft like this I think you have to take an elite big if you have the opportunity because they are more rare than guards that can score. So no I'm never taking Iverson over Olajuwon at #7. Guard wise there are only 3 I'm a lock to take over Iverson and that's Kobe, Mike and Magic. After those three he's probably who I'm taking. I just look at the draft and where people went and to get one of the elite scorers of his time at 32 is pretty good value to me.
Then the question is who would you have taken that went ahead of him before him?

The guys I might take before him are:

Hill-Injury
Zo-Injury issue
Wilkins-Similar player, AI is better defensively although much shorter.
Drexler-Similar reasons to Wilkins.
Wade-Injury issue, very short sample size.
Marion-Great overall player, but not a real #1 option.

Other than that I can't see 1 player I'd definitely want over AI. I don't think 32 was all that suprising. Do you see more players you'd rather AI than that were selected before him? You either have good/great bigs, great swings who are taller and more efficient and elite PGs who are true points.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:35 AM   #9212
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah I don't get it. It makes me wonder if some of these guys even watch the games. They act as if the opposing guard just gets the ball and posts up Iverson every trip down and scores 40 and he's just some huge defensive liability because he's 6'0. I think individual defenders especially ones that guard perimeter players in the NBA are highly overrated. Team defense is way more important. The bottom line is that I don't care how good of a defender you are you are never stopping an elite scorer in the NBA from getting his points. Ever. You might make them work a little harder I guess but the unguardable guys are unguardable for everyone.
Yeah I don't watch games. I just make a ton of comments about guys from just stats. Are you serious? Yes I know exactly the type of players I'm getting with AI, I've watched 50-75 games of his career maybe more. I think he's a great individual player, I just don't think he's OMG rediculously awesome good. I think his faults are huge in a league like this or in the NBA.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:38 AM   #9213
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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If he's so good why didn't you take him 7th overall? Also if he's so easy to build around why wasn't he picked sooner? Also nobody other than you is mentioning that it was steal at that pick. Maybe some of his biggest problems can be fixed but I'd still rather build around a lot of other players over him. Maybe it's just me, maybe I think he's overrated. He's a special player I just don't think he's that great.

Also of the guys selected in the first round, I don't think too highly of:

Reggie-Great pure shooter, but that's all he was. Sick clutch too, but I don't think he's first round talent.
Isiah-Great player just went way too high.
Wilkins-Eh..........
AI-Mentioned above.
Hill-Too many injury issues for me. At the top of his game he was amazing but I think he's injury prone rather than having multiple freak injuries.
Worthy-Nothing really special, still suprised he's in HOF.
VC-Knuckle head and inefficient player.

I'm also a huge UNC fan and I mentioned 2 players from UNC. Don't get me wrong I think VC and Worthy are good players just not top 40 in the last 30 years to build around.
Isiah - probably did go too high but definitley one of the best 40 players since 79. Not nearly as bad as taking Chris Paul at 11.

Reggie - I figured he'd go in the first round, no shock there with me.

Hill - talent wise yes he belongs in the first round but you are right with the injury thing.

Wilkins - Absolutley one of the best 40 players since 79.

Worthy - border line but I happen to know the reasoning behind this pick and once it was explained to me it made sense.

VC - as a talent alone yeah I can see him in the first round.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:41 AM   #9214
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Then the question is who would you have taken that went ahead of him before him?

The guys I might take before him are:

Hill-Injury
Zo-Injury issue
Wilkins-Similar player, AI is better defensively although much shorter.
Drexler-Similar reasons to Wilkins.
Wade-Injury issue, very short sample size.
Marion-Great overall player, but not a real #1 option.

Other than that I can't see 1 player I'd definitely want over AI. I don't think 32 was all that suprising. Do you see more players you'd rather AI than that were selected before him? You either have good/great bigs, great swings who are taller and more efficient and elite PGs who are true points.
I'd take him over hill, Zo, I'd have to think about Dominique, I'd take him over Wade and Marion.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:46 AM   #9215
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah I don't watch games. I just make a ton of comments about guys from just stats. Are you serious? Yes I know exactly the type of players I'm getting with AI, I've watched 50-75 games of his career maybe more. I think he's a great individual player, I just don't think he's OMG rediculously awesome good. I think his faults are huge in a league like this or in the NBA.
Did I say anything about you individually? No. Just a general comment about some of the things people are saying on this board. Don't get so defensive. You say his faults are huge yet he was the #1 overall pick and has produced like one his whole career with not a whole lot of help and hasn't shown any signs of slowing down yet. What more do you want out of the guy?
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:47 AM   #9216
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

How much better are Reggie, Wilkins, VC than Manu, Ray Allen Chris Mullin who were all selected in the second round? I don't think there is a huge gap here.

Wilkins was no doubt a great player. I didn't say he wasn't. I just don't think he's very special other than being a great scorer. He's not that efficient, he plays little to no D, and doesn't pass very well for a SF. As I mentioned throughout this thread, elite scorers are available throughout this draft. Wilkins could be considered should be considered the top fo the heap of those scorers, but I don't think he's that much better than guys selected after him with respect to their entire games. I feel the same way about Drexler. If I'm picking in the first round a guy I personally want a guy who can play both ways and play them well b/c there really aren't a ton of guys who can do that at an elite level. With that being said there aren't many of those guys period and as you go down the first round the list of problems with players definitely grows.

VC-talent alone yeah he has great talent; production, d, team-work, he has definitely a lot to work on.

Reggie-As I said, he probally was going first round. Personally I wouldn't want to be the guy having to pick him for similar reasons to Wilkins and Drexler. With that being said, the reason he was picked is b/c he is rediculously efficient for a guard.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:58 AM   #9217
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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How much better are Reggie, Wilkins, VC than Manu, Ray Allen Chris Mullin who were all selected in the second round? I don't think there is a huge gap here.

Wilkins was no doubt a great player. I didn't say he wasn't. I just don't think he's very special other than being a great scorer. He's not that efficient, he plays little to no D, and doesn't pass very well for a SF. As I mentioned throughout this thread, elite scorers are available throughout this draft. Wilkins could be considered should be considered the top fo the heap of those scorers, but I don't think he's that much better than guys selected after him with respect to their entire games. I feel the same way about Drexler. If I'm picking in the first round a guy I personally want a guy who can play both ways and play them well b/c there really aren't a ton of guys who can do that at an elite level. With that being said there aren't many of those guys period and as you go down the first round the list of problems with players definitely grows.

VC-talent alone yeah he has great talent; production, d, team-work, he has definitely a lot to work on.

Reggie-As I said, he probally was going first round. Personally I wouldn't want to be the guy having to pick him for similar reasons to Wilkins and Drexler. With that being said, the reason he was picked is b/c he is rediculously efficient for a guard.
I really think you are underestimating the value of being able to take over a game offensively in the NBA and do it while creating your own shot which is something 'Nique could do. Not as many players as you think can do that. I'll take a guy that can take a game over offensively every time over a less talented offensive player that plays a little better defense or is a little more well rounded. Like I said in an earlier post 1 on 1 defense in the NBA is highly overrated because no one can stop the elite offensive players that can take over games 1 on 1 anyway. Team defense is more important and most NBA players are adequate in a team defensive setting. Passing? I don't need my #1 scorer to be a great passer, I need him to put the ball in the basket.

We agree on VC.

I think Reggie got picked in a pretty good spot.
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:59 AM   #9218
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Someone else mentioned him. I responded to his post not realizing that he had mentioned an undrafted player. I realized it, went back and edited it and said "yea no mentioning players", but honestly as you can tell I've lost the desire to fight this fight anymore.

In the first round it was Clark doing it all the time. Then Bobbo did it a bunch. Tons of others did it throughout the draft. All along I've asked people to stop. I've even PMed people. I've even threatened penalties. People just don't seem to care, so I'm done caring. I will not mention undrafted players that nobody else has mentioned, so I don't see why you're upset at me. Someone else mentioned it, and to be honest I just don't care anymore about enforcing the rule.
This is totally absurd. Three people have been banned for violating the rule and it's been a total non-issue for a while now. Frankly, you've been the biggest (and almost only) violator of it for quite some time. Once all the early super-duper-studs were gone, we all agreed the rule made sense and supported you. In addition to bannings, I've deleted and edited literally dozens of posts. Stop acting like a tool please - you're better than that. I'd hate to ban you in your own awesome thread.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:03 AM   #9219
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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How much better are Reggie, Wilkins, VC than Manu, Ray Allen Chris Mullin who were all selected in the second round? I don't think there is a huge gap here.
I don't think there is either but there has to be some first rounders and some second rounders not every one can go in the first round and it's going to be a matter of personal preference when it comes down to alot of these picks. You can do this draft 100 times and probably get 100 different results.

FWIW with those 6

I'd take 'Nique over the other 5 then Ray Allen followed by Reggie. After that I'd probably go Mullin or VC depending on the type of spot you were trying to fill then Manu to round the 6 out.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:06 AM   #9220
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I really think you are underestimating the value of being able to take over a game offensively in the NBA and do it while creating your own shot which is something 'Nique could do. Not as many players as you think can do that. I'll take a guy that can take a game over offensively every time over a less talented offensive player that plays a little better defense or is a little more well rounded. Like I said in an earlier post 1 on 1 defense in the NBA is highly overrated because no one can stop the elite offensive players that can take over games 1 on 1 anyway. Team defense is more important and most NBA players are adequate in a team defensive setting. Passing? I don't need my #1 scorer to be a great passer, I need him to put the ball in the basket.

We agree on VC.

I think Reggie got picked in a pretty good spot.
Maybe 1 on 1 D is overrated, but it really cannot be overlooked. Unless you have an elite defensive player in the middle then if you have defensive liabilities on the perimeter, your team D is going to be suspect. Dr. Zoigberg is going to have a real suspect D with Wilkins, KJ and Beidrins as his top 3 players. I personally like 2 way players, if you think it's overrated that's fine by me. I know 2 way is much better valued for inside guys over outside guys but with that being said I'd rather take Pippen who is a 20 ppg scorer, rebounds, passes and is an elite defender and maybe can't score without conscious over a guy like Wilkins who all he can do is really score.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:07 AM   #9221
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Clark on page 102/103 for me, I posted a thing about Steve Smith my last pick, can you put it in the draft thread.

Thanks.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:09 AM   #9222
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I had it in like 10 mins ago. :P
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:14 AM   #9223
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Clark is Nasty imo.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:16 AM   #9224
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Someone told me they missed the old mean Clarkmeister. Just trying to oblige them.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:17 AM   #9225
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Maybe 1 on 1 D is overrated, but it really cannot be overlooked. Unless you have an elite defensive player in the middle then if you have defensive liabilities on the perimeter, your team D is going to be suspect. Dr. Zoigberg is going to have a real suspect D with Wilkins, KJ and Beidrins as his top 3 players. I personally like 2 way players, if you think it's overrated that's fine by me. I know 2 way is much better valued for inside guys over outside guys but with that being said I'd rather take Pippen who is a 20 ppg scorer, rebounds, passes and is an elite defender and maybe can't score without conscious over a guy like Wilkins who all he can do is really score.
Again how bad was 'Nique's defense? Did every one who he guarded torch him for 40? No. The guys who got 30 against every one else pretty much got 30 against him and the guys who got 15 against every one else pretty much got 15 against him. Now Pippen vs Wilkins is an interesting debate but Wilkins vs the other 5 I'm taking 'Nique every time. There are only so many elite scorers and if you look at championship teams that either had an elite scorer, an elite big man or both. You can always get a pretty good two way player later on in the draft. You can't get a guy that can take over a game later on in the draft though.
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