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Old 05-09-2008, 02:24 AM   #851
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
If you use more advanced stats and look at things like pace factor and defense then these numbers can present a very good picture of reality.
Yes but 90+ percent of people don't, I was just talking about basic stats which most of America uses.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:24 AM   #852
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I think I was probably wrong above about Dirk being the only choice. I still think it's pretty good, and not spew, but there are a few guys who might be better picks.

Do remember that Dirk's only 29 right now, and isn't likely to start dropping off the face of the planet.

And I was def not using any per game statistics when talking about Dirk's pwnage.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:25 AM   #853
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Looking strictly at the basic numbers there is no way anyone would think Duncan is as great as he is, as plenty of PF's/C's have put up similar/better numbers throughout the NBA.

Randolph being an all-star was kinda a stretch but the numbers obv make him look a lot better than he is, so how about saying looking at the numbers only Michael Redd would be a superstar. Is that better?
I hate to borrow your words, but.

FAIL.

Zack Randolf's career PER is 19, Redd's is 20. Duncan's career PER is over 25 ffs.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:27 AM   #854
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Duncan is a 22/12 guy, Randolph is a 16/8 guy. Duncan has a career fg% of .502, randolph .463.

Michael Redd? Well, Redd is an elite scorer, but that's it. He can't do anything else. It seems you're ranting about bad stats and not stats in general.
Someone like Chris Bosh, Jermaine O'Neal (back when he was healthy), Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Antwan Jamison etc. All put up similar numbers and none of them are in Duncan's class, yet their numbers are very similar.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:27 AM   #855
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by lastchance View Post
Do remember that Dirk's only 29 right now, and isn't likely to start dropping off the face of the planet.
Yeah his height and shot are two of the best assets that withstand age.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:27 AM   #856
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Yes but 90+ percent of people don't, I was just talking about basic stats which most of America uses.
Then you don't have a point, since you're not talking to 90+ percent of people.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:28 AM   #857
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I hate to borrow your words, but.

FAIL.

Zack Randolf's career PER is 19, Redd's is 20. Duncan's career PER is over 25 ffs.
Fail

I was not talking about Per. I was talking about basic stats that lastchance and the majority of America uses.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:31 AM   #858
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Fail

I was not talking about Per. I was talking about basic stats that lastchance and the majority of America uses.
PER uses basic stats.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:33 AM   #859
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Plus one of the reasons that I chose Dirk was that I think he is easy to build around. In the past 5 years he has played in very different offenses under Avery and Nellie without losing a step and without disrupting the offense. This is going to very important in future rounds.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:33 AM   #860
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
PER uses basic stats.
yes but it factors in mpg and other stuff that the public generally ignores
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:33 AM   #861
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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And I was def not using any per game statistics when talking about Dirk's pwnage.
Yeah. Not using per game numbers.

And you do realize that for Dirk, these numbers look worse because in his prime, Dallas played at a pretty slow pace, right?

Admittedly, I used some pretty cursory stats (PER, WSAA), instead of really going in depth into TS%, TO%, things like that, but law of large numbers, should be solid approximations of value, and they really like Dirk. I probably underestimated defense, but those numbers also love D-Rob, Malone, Ewing, etc.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:34 AM   #862
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Yes but 90+ percent of people don't, I was just talking about basic stats which most of America uses.

Here was the initial post(bold added by me):

Quote:
Dirk is way closer to best pick in the draft so far than worst. WTF? This is good value, IMO.

Not a single player I think even close to Dirk (looking at the numbers at least).

Isiah was a terrible, terrible pick partly because this guy was still on board. Who the hell is better (probably should stop commenting in thread, so PM me with names, k?)

Then you responded:
Quote:
Basketball is not a game of #'s. If it was Zach Randolph would be an all-star and Tim Duncan wouldn't be that great.



You say that you're talking about basic stats, but why do you assume that the initial post was talking about basic stats. We're not "90% of people" here...we're a bunch of huge basketball fans who love breaking down advanced stats.

At the very least, before assuming he was talking about basic stats and disagreeing with him for a 5 or 6 post exchange, you could've asked him what he meant by "stats."



But whatever, instead of this silly argument:


For those who don't like the Dirk pick explain why using advanced stats.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:35 AM   #863
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by lastchance View Post
Yeah. Not using per game numbers.

And you do realize that for Dirk, these numbers look worse because in his prime, Dallas played at a pretty slow pace, right?

Admittedly, I used some pretty cursory stats (PER, WSAA), instead of really going in depth into TS%, TO%, things like that, but law of large numbers, should be solid approximations of value, and they really like Dirk.
There is no doubt about Dirk's offense, but his defense is bad. As others have said, we will have plenty of scoring, it won't be a problem, but defense will obviously be the key factor in all of this.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:35 AM   #864
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
yes but it factors in mpg and other stuff that the public generally ignores
Because the general public is pretty abysmal when it comes to math. I would hope a forum of poker players, the same ones discussing and eventually voting on this, would be more willing to use more number based metrics.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:36 AM   #865
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Here was the initial post(bold added by me):




Then you responded:





You say that you're talking about basic stats, but why do you assume that the initial post was talking about basic stats. We're not "90% of people" here...we're a bunch of huge basketball fans who love breaking down advanced stats.

At the very least, before assuming he was talking about basic stats and disagreeing with him for a 5 or 6 post exchange, you could've asked him what he meant by "stats."



But whatever, instead of this silly argument:


For those who don't like the Dirk pick explain why using advanced stats.
His defense is not good, I don't need to break down advanced stats to know this.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:37 AM   #866
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
There is no doubt about Dirk's offense, but his defense is bad. As others have said, we will have plenty of scoring, it won't be a problem, but defense will obviously be the key factor in all of this.
I will agree here, although by all accounts his D has gotten much better as hes gotten older.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:37 AM   #867
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Since when did what the general public interprets become the basis for a player being good or bad in SE?
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:38 AM   #868
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

also realize Dirk got coached by Nellie for most of his career. Had a semi-decent defensive coach worked with him early on he probably would have been much better
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:38 AM   #869
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I don't really like the Dirk pick, but its far from horrible. He is incredibly efficient.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:38 AM   #870
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
His defense is not good, I don't need to break down advanced stats to know this.
I wasn't talking about his defense one bit in that post...why did you change the subject?

I was talking about the initial posting of the word "stats" and how you totally disagreed with it despite not understanding that the poster was not using basic stats since nearly all of us are advanced enough to use better stats.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:39 AM   #871
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
also realize Dirk got coached by Nellie for most of his career. Had a semi-decent defensive coach worked with him early on he probably would have been much better
good point too though.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:39 AM   #872
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I wasn't talking about his defense one bit in that post...why did you change the subject?

I was talking about the initial posting of the word "stats" and how you totally disagreed with it despite not understanding that the poster was not using basic stats since nearly all of us are advanced enough to use better stats.
But whatever, instead of this silly argument:


For those who don't like the Dirk pick explain why using advanced stats.

Is what you said.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:40 AM   #873
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Sick I wasn't even considering Dirk for my pick at 20...I might actually have some guys to choose from now. I think it's a little spewy but not that bad when I think about it a bit.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:42 AM   #874
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Dirk's D really isn't that bad at all. It's not great, his DRtg is 103 for his career (100 is average, lower number the better), gets a decent # of rebounds and blocks (but once again nothing elite). Besides, the fact that he's a bit more mobile helps guard certain types of big men and helps on the switch against pick and rolls.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:42 AM   #875
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Jesus it's like everyone's forgetting he's an MVP and had been an MVP candidate the 2-3 years before he won it.
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