Those guys have a knack for smoking players though, especially when those teams have 0 inside presence. The one flaw with Seadood's team is that there is no one to guard great perimeter scorers.

So if your saying someone taking let's say an player who played 2 games in league 1 year and picked him in the 5th round it wouldn't be a bad pick b/c he was picked in the 5th round? It doesn't matter where the guy was picked, Marbury was pretty damn bad considering where he was going to fall. I guess someone else might have taken him but his value to me was much, much lower.

Uh maybe the fact that there were guys picked at the end of the 3rd round who are far better than him? The fact that Marbury is a cancer, is not efficent at all etc?

haha tbach will be so mad

QFT. He is wicked talented and I agree to an extent that he's never really had the right team environment to thrive (except when he was with the T'wolves, and then he was a 20 y/o punk). Still, not a great pick, but depending on the rest of the makeup of HSP's team, it could be aiight.

schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.

Eh I don't even think he was a better player than Petrovic, but even if he was, Petrovic was by far better value considering you have to at least admit they are very close and Petrovic went 30 picks later.

And this is the problem with all this proven commodity crap, first off it's not guarenteed they don't get hurt in our league, and you guys are implying like the chances that Joe Johnson falling off are greater than Schrempf which I highly disagree with, do you think if their careers started again at 24 than Joe Johnson has a significantly greater chance of falling off than Schrempf?

Infact i'd argue the chances that Schrempf falls off are greater than Johnson since Johnson imo is more durable.

man, i too love seadood's team.

There's just some huge hate for him based on the NYK years. Before that he was considered one of the great young talents in the league. It's not like the guys he was traded for suck either. First for Ray Allen, then in a 3-way with Sam Cassell and Terrell Brandon, then for Jason Kidd. I don't think he's any better than Cassell or Brandon, but you guys are acting like Starbury's a guy who probably shouldn't have even gone yet, when the truth of the matter is he's a 3rd round talent and was probably just taken a round early.

lol, mookie is your 3rd best "top 5 pick" ?? He is on the top 10 list of worst picks.

lol at you silly guys not mentioning Chris Mullin being picked in the 70s.

Petrovic could score. Cool. He didn't pass, rebound, or play D. Schrempf does all of those things. And I'm not talking about how long he could play for, I'm talking about the fact that in his 14th season in the league, Schrempf played 35 mpg with a 18 PER and .576 TS%. That's pretty nuts.

The biggest thing is I think he's a huge cancer. Maybe if he was in the right situation he wouldn't bitch all the time about leaving his team. If he was supremely talented, I don't think he'd be so easily traded repeatedly. Yes the guys he was traded for are pretty damn impressive. And yes the Knick years do weigh in, but teams seem to get better once he leaves, which isn't a good sign. I know it's not a direct correlation, PHX had young guys who improved, Minnesota got Cassell, Nets got Kidd but it's a reason I wouldn't pick him.

good god kidcolin, you even insert some youtube links into some of the first or last names of the draft. You are a beast

agree to disagree. Ray is a bonafide stud. See video thread.

Miller is very good value pick here but I don't know about the fit with a team that already has Hornacek. I think you are stuck playing Horn at the PG spot now, because you need a SG who does something other than shoot well and not play defense.

Going into that Knicks team would kill pretty much any player. When Steph was thrown onto that team, it was with a washed-up Penny, a psychotic Marion, and pretty much nothing else. The reason they were so much better the years before was because of Kidd, who's one of the best PG's of all-time, so that's not fair. Oh and the reason Phoenix got so much better after Marion left? Little guy named Steve Nash.

He's nowhere near elite, but to say he is THE WORST PICK EVER is terrible. I really don't buy into him being as much as a cancer, but he's made to look that way because after he leaves, seasoned (and elite) PG's step in.

This is what you said:

schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.

And it's not just you that's doing this, it's other people also. Do you really think Schrempf is significantly less likley to get hurt in this league than Joe Johnson? Do you think Joe Johnson is suddenly going to fall off after he hits 30?

And it's not like Schrempf was a lock down defender. Also he played SF/PF, hes expected to rebound, Petrovic was a SG, rebounding from them are not needed although obv helpful, a poor rebounding SG bearly hurts ur team. Petrovic is also a better shooter than Schrempf, and better at scoring too. I personally think Petrovic is better, but its very close, and even if Schrempf is better, Petrovic was by far the better value since he went 30 picks later.

there are a couple athletic jumpers that could play the perimeter who cant shoot... i mean, his jump shooting will be terrific. he's like the dallas mavericks, only better.

horn could def. play the pg spot since his interior help is amazing.

yeah I missed Mullin. Def great value.

Really find Joe Johnson overrated. Think he went exactly where he should.

agree/agree.

man o man i hope my guy falls to me.

Ray Allen is a pure shooter who can't play D. His assist #s and rebound #s are good for a pure shooter but nothing special for a swing man. His PER is again good but not amazing for a guy who shoots. His TS% is also pretty high for a pure shooter but Reggie's is higher.

Mullin had a slightly lower PER, higher TS% similar rebounding and assist #s and averaged nearly the same # of PPG for their career and this considering we are including 5 years in which he heavily declined from his max. You think Ray Allen is 30 picks better than Mullin, get real.

same with Petrovic. Pure shooter. that's IT. and he died.

Isn't that how it is for any player you pick first? You pick the player then you build around him. I strongly disagree with him being a horrible pick in the top 20.

Yeah in my next post I clarified what I meant by "proven commodity." Also, from context you should see that I meant he did it and did it well for awhile. You're right though that in this, Schrempf and JJ are about the same in terms of "keeping it up." Will everyone view it like that? I'm not sure, but I hope they do. Also, Scrhempf > JJ for a number of reasons (see: defense, rebounding). But Schrempf also is a 3/4 and JJ is a 2/3 so it's not that great a comparison anyways.

Yes other people are doing it to, lots of people in fact. I'd even say they are smart people.

How is it hard to realize that someone who did something for 10+ years is a safer bet than someone who has done it for <5 years?

Do I think Joe Johnson is going to fall off after he hits 30? I don't know, but its a lot more likely than it happening to Detlef, welcome to the whole point!