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Old 05-29-2008, 02:12 PM   #8551
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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For some reason they always put him on Kobe or Lebron when they would come. God he would get smoked.
Those guys have a knack for smoking players though, especially when those teams have 0 inside presence. The one flaw with Seadood's team is that there is no one to guard great perimeter scorers.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:14 PM   #8552
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stephon Marbury at 68 is far far far away from being the worst pick in this draft. Come on guys. Not sure what the hate for Marbury is fueled by it's not like someone took him in the top 10. The guy went mid second round.
So if your saying someone taking let's say an player who played 2 games in league 1 year and picked him in the 5th round it wouldn't be a bad pick b/c he was picked in the 5th round? It doesn't matter where the guy was picked, Marbury was pretty damn bad considering where he was going to fall. I guess someone else might have taken him but his value to me was much, much lower.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:14 PM   #8553
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stephon Marbury at 68 is far far far away from being the worst pick in this draft. Come on guys. Not sure what the hate for Marbury is fueled by it's not like someone took him in the top 10. The guy went mid second round.
Uh maybe the fact that there were guys picked at the end of the 3rd round who are far better than him? The fact that Marbury is a cancer, is not efficent at all etc?
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:14 PM   #8554
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm taking Mike Miller, writeup is forthcoming.
haha tbach will be so mad
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:16 PM   #8555
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stephon Marbury at 68 is far far far away from being the worst pick in this draft. Come on guys. Not sure what the hate for Marbury is fueled by it's not like someone took him in the top 10. The guy went mid second round.
QFT. He is wicked talented and I agree to an extent that he's never really had the right team environment to thrive (except when he was with the T'wolves, and then he was a 20 y/o punk). Still, not a great pick, but depending on the rest of the makeup of HSP's team, it could be aiight.

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wat? in terms of value no freakin way... I don't get the crazy love for Schrempf, he was obv good, and good in NBA Jam as well, but hes not much better if at all better than guys like Petrovic, Joe Johnson etc. who went a good 30 picks later.
schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #8556
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.
Eh I don't even think he was a better player than Petrovic, but even if he was, Petrovic was by far better value considering you have to at least admit they are very close and Petrovic went 30 picks later.

And this is the problem with all this proven commodity crap, first off it's not guarenteed they don't get hurt in our league, and you guys are implying like the chances that Joe Johnson falling off are greater than Schrempf which I highly disagree with, do you think if their careers started again at 24 than Joe Johnson has a significantly greater chance of falling off than Schrempf?

Infact i'd argue the chances that Schrempf falls off are greater than Johnson since Johnson imo is more durable.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #8557
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

man, i too love seadood's team.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:20 PM   #8558
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

There's just some huge hate for him based on the NYK years. Before that he was considered one of the great young talents in the league. It's not like the guys he was traded for suck either. First for Ray Allen, then in a 3-way with Sam Cassell and Terrell Brandon, then for Jason Kidd. I don't think he's any better than Cassell or Brandon, but you guys are acting like Starbury's a guy who probably shouldn't have even gone yet, when the truth of the matter is he's a 3rd round talent and was probably just taken a round early.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:20 PM   #8559
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'll take a stab at top 5 value out of the first 10 picks.

1. AI at 32 I think is robbery. I could be in the minority here but I still don't know how he dropped that low.

2. Dale Ellis at 96. For a guy who's peak scoring for 5 years was around the 25ppg range and considered one of the best pure shooters for 10-15 years this is really low in my book.

3. Mookie Blaylock at 112. Considering alot of the players of the same position taken in front of him this is great value at 112.

4. Drazen Petrovic at 118. see # 3.

5. Shareef Abdur Rahim 124. see # #3.
lol, mookie is your 3rd best "top 5 pick" ?? He is on the top 10 list of worst picks.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:22 PM   #8560
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lol at you silly guys not mentioning Chris Mullin being picked in the 70s.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:22 PM   #8561
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Eh I don't even think he was a better player than Petrovic, but even if he was, Petrovic was by far better value considering you have to at least admit they are very close and Petrovic went 30 picks later.

And this is the problem with all this proven commodity crap, first off it's not guarenteed they don't get hurt in our league, and you guys are implying like the chances that Joe Johnson falling off are greater than Schrempf which I highly disagree with, do you think if their careers started again at 24 than Joe Johnson has a significantly greater chance of falling off than Schrempf?

Infact i'd argue the chances that Schrempf falls off are greater than Johnson since Johnson imo is more durable.
Petrovic could score. Cool. He didn't pass, rebound, or play D. Schrempf does all of those things. And I'm not talking about how long he could play for, I'm talking about the fact that in his 14th season in the league, Schrempf played 35 mpg with a 18 PER and .576 TS%. That's pretty nuts.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:23 PM   #8562
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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There's just some huge hate for him based on the NYK years. Before that he was considered one of the great young talents in the league. It's not like the guys he was traded for suck either. First for Ray Allen, then in a 3-way with Sam Cassell and Terrell Brandon, then for Jason Kidd. I don't think he's any better than Cassell or Brandon, but you guys are acting like Starbury's a guy who probably shouldn't have even gone yet, when the truth of the matter is he's a 3rd round talent and was probably just taken a round early.
The biggest thing is I think he's a huge cancer. Maybe if he was in the right situation he wouldn't ***** all the time about leaving his team. If he was supremely talented, I don't think he'd be so easily traded repeatedly. Yes the guys he was traded for are pretty damn impressive. And yes the Knick years do weigh in, but teams seem to get better once he leaves, which isn't a good sign. I know it's not a direct correlation, PHX had young guys who improved, Minnesota got Cassell, Nets got Kidd but it's a reason I wouldn't pick him.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:26 PM   #8563
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

good god kidcolin, you even insert some youtube links into some of the first or last names of the draft. You are a beast
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:27 PM   #8564
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I like Ray Allen but I don't think he was that great of value at 42. I personally don't think he's that much better than Mullin, Richmond, Manu, etc.
agree to disagree. Ray is a bonafide stud. See video thread.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:28 PM   #8565
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Miller is very good value pick here but I don't know about the fit with a team that already has Hornacek. I think you are stuck playing Horn at the PG spot now, because you need a SG who does something other than shoot well and not play defense.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:30 PM   #8566
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Going into that Knicks team would kill pretty much any player. When Steph was thrown onto that team, it was with a washed-up Penny, a psychotic Marion, and pretty much nothing else. The reason they were so much better the years before was because of Kidd, who's one of the best PG's of all-time, so that's not fair. Oh and the reason Phoenix got so much better after Marion left? Little guy named Steve Nash.

He's nowhere near elite, but to say he is THE WORST PICK EVER is terrible. I really don't buy into him being as much as a cancer, but he's made to look that way because after he leaves, seasoned (and elite) PG's step in.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:30 PM   #8567
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Petrovic could score. Cool. He didn't pass, rebound, or play D. Schrempf does all of those things. And I'm not talking about how long he could play for, I'm talking about the fact that in his 14th season in the league, Schrempf played 35 mpg with a 18 PER and .576 TS%. That's pretty nuts.
This is what you said:

schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.

And it's not just you that's doing this, it's other people also. Do you really think Schrempf is significantly less likley to get hurt in this league than Joe Johnson? Do you think Joe Johnson is suddenly going to fall off after he hits 30?

And it's not like Schrempf was a lock down defender. Also he played SF/PF, hes expected to rebound, Petrovic was a SG, rebounding from them are not needed although obv helpful, a poor rebounding SG bearly hurts ur team. Petrovic is also a better shooter than Schrempf, and better at scoring too. I personally think Petrovic is better, but its very close, and even if Schrempf is better, Petrovic was by far the better value since he went 30 picks later.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:30 PM   #8568
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Miller is very good value pick here but I don't know about the fit with a team that already has Hornacek. I think you are stuck playing Horn at the PG spot now, because you need a SG who does something other than shoot well and not play defense.
there are a couple athletic jumpers that could play the perimeter who cant shoot... i mean, his jump shooting will be terrific. he's like the dallas mavericks, only better.

horn could def. play the pg spot since his interior help is amazing.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:30 PM   #8569
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

yeah I missed Mullin. Def great value.

Really find Joe Johnson overrated. Think he went exactly where he should.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:32 PM   #8570
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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yeah I missed Mullin. Def great value.

Really find Joe Johnson overrated. Think he went exactly where he should.
agree/agree.

man o man i hope my guy falls to me.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:32 PM   #8571
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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agree to disagree. Ray is a bonafide stud. See video thread.
Ray Allen is a pure shooter who can't play D. His assist #s and rebound #s are good for a pure shooter but nothing special for a swing man. His PER is again good but not amazing for a guy who shoots. His TS% is also pretty high for a pure shooter but Reggie's is higher.

Mullin had a slightly lower PER, higher TS% similar rebounding and assist #s and averaged nearly the same # of PPG for their career and this considering we are including 5 years in which he heavily declined from his max. You think Ray Allen is 30 picks better than Mullin, get real.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:32 PM   #8572
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

same with Petrovic. Pure shooter. that's IT. and he died.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:32 PM   #8573
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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AI is really hard to build a great team around. Yes by himself he's a great player, but as a teammate you are kinda forced into to surround him with certain types of players. I know his TS% has risen with better players but it's not partcularly high. For someone who should play the 2, he has an extremly high usage rate. He's also pretty small and plays hurt which is a good and bad thing. Maybe he should have gotten slightly higher but if someone took him in the top 20 I think it would have been a horrible pick.
Isn't that how it is for any player you pick first? You pick the player then you build around him. I strongly disagree with him being a horrible pick in the top 20.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:34 PM   #8574
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This is what you said:

schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.

And it's not just you that's doing this, it's other people also. Do you really think Schrempf is significantly less likley to get hurt in this league than Joe Johnson?

And it's not like Schrempf was a lock down defender. Also he played SF/PF, hes expected to rebound, Petrovic was a SG, rebounding from them are not needed although obv helpful, a poor rebounding SG bearly hurts ur team. Petrovic is also a better shooter than Schrempf, and better at scoring too. I personally think Petrovic is better, but its very close, and even if Schrempf is better, Petrovic was by far the better value since he went 30 picks later.
Yeah in my next post I clarified what I meant by "proven commodity." Also, from context you should see that I meant he did it and did it well for awhile. You're right though that in this, Schrempf and JJ are about the same in terms of "keeping it up." Will everyone view it like that? I'm not sure, but I hope they do. Also, Scrhempf > JJ for a number of reasons (see: defense, rebounding). But Schrempf also is a 3/4 and JJ is a 2/3 so it's not that great a comparison anyways.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:34 PM   #8575
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This is what you said:

schrempf was a better overall player than petrovic, and joe johnson has only been doing it for a little while, whereas schrempf was a proven commodity for over a decade.

And it's not just you that's doing this, it's other people also. Do you really think Schrempf is significantly less likley to get hurt in this league than Joe Johnson? Do you think Joe Johnson is suddenly going to fall off after he hits 30?
Yes other people are doing it to, lots of people in fact. I'd even say they are smart people.

How is it hard to realize that someone who did something for 10+ years is a safer bet than someone who has done it for <5 years?

Do I think Joe Johnson is going to fall off after he hits 30? I don't know, but its a lot more likely than it happening to Detlef, welcome to the whole point!
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