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Old 05-27-2008, 04:28 PM   #7776
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Couple of things on Mookie before I head out:

I knew people would focus on his TS% - it's become the focus of many people in the second half of this thread. However, that's ignoring all of the other things he does well - which are plenty as evidenced by a consistently good PER for a guy who is so good at defense. This isn't Ben Wallace on the offensive end. It's also a great example of how young players who haven't played past 25 get overrated in this format. Mookies peak from 25-29 or so his TS% was a more than respectible 53% for a defensive stopper/pass first PG. But things get weighed down over the course of a career, in this case somewhat due to two early seasons that don't even count for this.

In addition, he really helped carry a team without any true inside presense for years. Mutombo and one other undrafted mediocre post presence for a few years was the closest thing they had to a post scorer. This not only hurts his shooting, but it also depressed his assist totals since it was a team of inefficient jump shooters/slashers. That is rectified in a huge way on my team.

In this format, Mark Aguirre (who I think was a good pick) would've gone like top 20 overall if we had done this after his 24yo season. Tons of other players both drafted and undrafted also would have had a similar escalation of value. Looking at career stats that include a decline phase (even an effective decline phase) for long lived players like Blaylock doesn't really give an apples to apples.

The general thought process here is "let's look at career averages for the retired guys, but let's extrapolate like 8 more years of current production (or better) for the young guys. That's imo a suboptimal way to evaluate things.

Anyways, I'd rather have Blaylock than, for example, Baron Davis who is inefficient shooting while taking far more shots, and isn't anywhere near the defender that Mookie is. There were like 3 other good PG options available, but none were close to as good on the ball as Mookie, which I think is important given the number of quality PGs that my team will be facing in this league. The fewer breakdowns on the point, the tougher my interior guys are. I understand why people dislike the pick, I just respectfully disagree and think he's better than the PGs who are certain to go in the next half-round or so of picks.
No one is comparing Mookie to Baron: Very different players. And I did make a comment that since he never played with a low post threat, having one may free him up for better shots, so that his % would be a tad higher. Regardless, the comparisons to Ben Wallace are flawed since... One, they play a different position. Two, for someone who was ineffective on the offensive end, Mookie still saw a reason to shoot (more than he should). Ben atleast understands his limitations.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:29 PM   #7777
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

ruffneck is on now, i'm assuming KC pm'd him and he's making his pick now, although have no proof of either.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:30 PM   #7778
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

ruffneck was online ten mins ago (last time I checked), viewing this thread.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:32 PM   #7779
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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This was too soon for Lamar. That said, I don't hate it. With Glen and Hakeem you don't really need scoring, but getting someone who can handle the ball, rebound, pass, and play defense is always nice. Good pick.
lol, so funny. I was just talking about this with someone where he rated Lamar, and I thought Lamar would get drafted prematurely due to many laker fans. Still, can't fault the pick.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:33 PM   #7780
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Coupla things about SamIam:

1. He's not a big 3 point guy, but I don't like calling him a bad shooter. His midrange game was very good, and he got a lot of and1's and wide open looks with his body control and ability to create space between him and the defender. Also, he shot .378 over his career in the playoffs.

2. I also don't like calling his defense bad. Like many offensive guys, Sam seemed to bring it when needed.

He always struck me as a guy who played better as the stakes got higher.

Please excuse the overused cliche.

As far as the AK47 and SamIam picks, I think they are great and good value, although I think these two are tougher to judge right now because they are so dependent on the rest of your lineups.

Last edited by Seadood228; 05-27-2008 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:34 PM   #7781
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Lamar is a good fit on that team. Not high on my personal list, but fills a need for them.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:34 PM   #7782
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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If you listen to that clip again, they say "that's lamar's 7th (!) TO of the night". heh
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:40 PM   #7783
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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After the way he's been killing your Celts this postseason, it's a brave pick at least, not sure if I would have been able to dive headfirst into the pick if he was doing that to my team.
Sam ain't really the problem.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:43 PM   #7784
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I admit that I havn't given that much thought, but is this the general concensus(I'd especially like to hear from Bobbo here)? Can he defend good scoring PFs well?

I do like the versatility he can bring. Duncan can obviously play the 4 or 5, AK47 can play 3/4 and probably the 2 also, and Penny can play the 1, 2, and 3.
Alright, here is the long and short of it with AK:

For one, he's great value at this point in the draft. Prior to turning 25, he was a stud, and would've likely been first round value. (Or early 2nd round) I mean, he could do it all, and he could do it all WELL. Then something happened. It's not injury - it's mental and/or team related.

Defensively he used to be a great 1on1 defender bc he was so long and quick (think of a stronger tayshaun) and he could constantly harass/ poke the ball out. That said, he gets posted up a bit and backed down, but he's still a decent post defender against 3s or smaller due to his length.

Nowadays, he never ever defends the 4, simply because he gets out muscled. Also, he has no 1on1 defense anymore. He's the 2nd best perimeter defender, but his strength is weakside help. He also is great at running down fast breaks and pwning people who think they were about to dunk.

Offensively, his shot looks awful and is wildly inconsistent. Career wise he's ~31%, at 1.6 a game, but he shot better this year and possibly is turning into a better shooter. He essentially "can do it all," slash/shoot/post, but he can't do any of that great. I don't know if he is a player that just is wants to be the best player on a bad team, or with Sloan isn't used effectively, but when he's on, he's the best player on the court.

People should note his usage - no one runs plays for him anymore. His really poor year the year before last, he just stopped doing the things he did so well. He stopped passing as effectively, starting turning the ball over more, less action on offense, fewer steals/blocks, significantly worse rebounding. Seriously, I just don't know what to make of him.

all in all i think assani got good value, but we need to be clear that you're not getting the pre 24 AK. That AK was elite. This AK is merely good. (And infuriating)
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:43 PM   #7785
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

KC decided against an all white team, and is now going for the ugliest.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:44 PM   #7786
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

omg why has no one taken the best pg everrrrrrr yet
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:44 PM   #7787
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah AK is a significantly better defender at 4 than 3. He's too quick on the D for PF's to handle. Now all he mostly gets weakside blocks but he used to get on the ball ones more. Also, note the dropoff from being an all D team player before the Booze showed up. If there's one thing that Sloan hasn't done well with this team, it's utilize AK47 since Booze showed up.
No, he's never been a good on the ball defender. He was better at the 4 bc he guarded the black hole which let him play the so-called 1 man zone. That is when he's incredible -

if a team played a box-and-1, for example, AK would be deadly.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:46 PM   #7788
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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omg why has no one taken the best pg everrrrrrr yet
Marbury went in the second round.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:46 PM   #7789
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Bobbo -

Wasn't trying to insinuate that you said Clark's team had bad D, I was just stating why I liked the team.

RE: Nance's low post game. I'll defer here if you say he didnt have much of one. I remember him being average to good in that department, but I might be remembering incorrectly because of his high FG%

D
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:49 PM   #7790
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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KC decided against an all white team, and is now going for the ugliest.
lol so true. Larry, Sam, and Don Flamenco

however, I have been advised to err on the side of whiteness by my GM. It's only in clear cases where I should break that. Needed a PG, Sam was ~BPA (at least at spots I need), so I had to do it.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:49 PM   #7791
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Had to post this

Yeah between Sam and Larry you're going to tilt a lot of teams.
funny interview, sam is the man
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:50 PM   #7792
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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btw, due to you guys pointing it out to me can a mod edit this in right under my #4 point in my writeup on AK47:


5. AK47 was a much better defensive player when allowed to play PF. His timing and size are his strengths on D. Playing the SF or SG, his quickness is average. However when guarding PFs he has exceptional quickness which can cause fits. I intend to use AK47 mostly at the PF, which I believe will help him maintain that age 24 level production.
assani, this isn't true tho. TB is wrong here. he played the 4 bc he had a quickness advantage offensively and often blew by his guy (he hasn't slashed and created as well this year/last year) but the reason he likes the 4 is it let him roam more on defense. 1on1, he gets backed down a lot.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:51 PM   #7793
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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all in all i think assani got good value, but we need to be clear that you're not getting the pre 24 AK. That AK was elite. This AK is merely good. (And infuriating)
I am getting one year definitely at the elite level(age 24). After that, he probably slips up like he did in real life, but its not guaranteed.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:54 PM   #7794
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No, he's never been a good on the ball defender. He was better at the 4 bc he guarded the black hole which let him play the so-called 1 man zone. That is when he's incredible -

if a team played a box-and-1, for example, AK would be deadly.
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Nowadays, he never ever defends the 4, simply because he gets out muscled.
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assani, this isn't true tho. TB is wrong here. he played the 4 bc he had a quickness advantage offensively and often blew by his guy (he hasn't slashed and created as well this year/last year) but the reason he likes the 4 is it let him roam more on defense. 1on1, he gets backed down a lot.


By black hole do you mean that he guarded the other teams worst big man? What if that big man was 7ft+ and big and strong(i.e. What if the other teams best big man was their PF and their C was merely average)?


If you were me, would you play him at the 3 or 4? I'm thinking 4 because apparently thats what he played back when he was a stud(correct me if I'm wrong there though).
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:54 PM   #7795
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

the biggest problem with AK is that it's NOT injury related. it's not like he tore an ACL and can speculate "what if". He didn't get physically hurt; he just fell off. I mean, even his fall off is still decent, (+defense, offense that doesn't hurt you) but compared to "what was" this is astounding.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:55 PM   #7796
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Bobbo,

Did you even watch basketball 3 years ago?
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:57 PM   #7797
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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By black hole do you mean that he guarded the other teams worst big man? What if that big man was 7ft+ and big and strong?


If you were me, would you play him at the 3 or 4? I'm thinking 4 because apparently thats what he played back when he was a stud(correct me if I'm wrong there though).
black hole i mean a guy that doesn't score. for example, if you played a team that had ben wallace, you could match him up with him, and let him play 1man zone (similar to lamar odom in this playoff series vs the spurs). he's DEVASTATING in that regard, bc if anyone beats their man, they're getting blocked by AK. if anyone posts up, AK is double teaming, and stripping the ball. his best asset on defense, and it's hard to find anyone as good as him at this department, is his length. he is VERY smart about how to use it - his hands are like magnets for the ball. so, he forces steals when double teaming, and he blocks shots when people dont expect it.

on offense it doesn't matter if he's a 3 or 4, he'll likely stand at the perimeter and take wide open 3s if you give it to him, and occasionally he'll do something cool like dribble penetrate and dish or come out of nowhere for a putback dunk, but most of the time he just sorta stands there or runs from one end to the other. on defense just match him up with their worst player, and you'll have one of the best help defenders ever..
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:58 PM   #7798
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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ruffneck was online ten mins ago (last time I checked), viewing this thread.
still around?
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:58 PM   #7799
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Bobbo,

Did you even watch basketball 3 years ago?
i watched every single jazz game that was nationally televised or when they played the celtics.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:59 PM   #7800
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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still around?
i dunno, i pmed him tho. time to go play pickup.
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