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Old 05-27-2008, 03:22 PM   #7726
kidcolin
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

And Assani ruins my sickest passing all-white frontline ever. Once again Assani's "24" rule sorta sucks for AK. I still like him here and I agree with Assani's points about the team shifts affecting his game. He's better as an undersized 4 active around the glass than as a wing on offense.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:22 PM   #7727
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

good pick. just hope that he doesn't have a vacation coming up before any important games.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:23 PM   #7728
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kbfc View Post
You're better than that. It's really too bad Kobe's back gave Utah a glimmer of hope, because now I'm going to have to listen to this nonsense for the whole offseason.



What I mean is that there is a disconnect between the skills that lead to basketball success and the stats that tally results. When you get into silliness like PER, it becomes even more evident. I'm flying back from NY tonight, so I'll be able to look into it further later, but I think it's quite clear what I mean by "overrated by the stats": he scores higher in certain stats than other players who I believe to be better than him at the aspect(s) of the game that specific stat is meant to cover.

I watched probably 10-15 Kings games this year (at the very least the 4 Laker games and 3-4 Spurs games), and was underwhelmed at best.

edit: I quickly browsed through his gamelog. Is there anyone else in the league (with any significant minutes/contributions) who scored even close to as high a % (over 33%) of his points at the line? I think this was what struck me the most watching him; he didn't really seem to be all that great, but he was getting hacked/getting calls like crazy. Is he really a tougher cover than Kobe or Lebron? Something stinks in Kevin Martin land....

I can understand why PER can be misleading. I can't understand how PPG and TS% when looked at together can be misleading.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:23 PM   #7729
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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And Assani ruins my sickest passing all-white frontline ever. Once again Assani's "24" rule sorta sucks for AK. I still like him here and I agree with Assani's points about the team shifts affecting his game. He's better as an undersized 4 active around the glass than as a wing on offense.
QFT
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:26 PM   #7730
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Steroid Boy View Post
assani
die
for
taking
ak47

that is all
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
And Assani ruins my sickest passing all-white frontline ever.


LOL...as I said, he was only the #2 player on my board, but I didn't think he'd get back to me so I took a risk that my #1 player will. Hopefully none of you guys will get me back by taking my #1.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:28 PM   #7731
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
QFT
I admit that I havn't given that much thought, but is this the general concensus(I'd especially like to hear from Bobbo here)? Can he defend good scoring PFs well?

I do like the versatility he can bring. Duncan can obviously play the 4 or 5, AK47 can play 3/4 and probably the 2 also, and Penny can play the 1, 2, and 3.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:30 PM   #7732
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Assani,

weird because he's my #2 too and I was thinking it was worth risking him getting back to me... but steroid boy and you clearly would have foiled my plans
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:31 PM   #7733
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

assani,

not sure it matters whether he's the 3 or 4 a lot, but Sloan camped him out around the perimeter for that stinker year where he's better off slashing and distributing and crashing the glass.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:33 PM   #7734
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Yeah AK is a significantly better defender at 4 than 3. He's too quick on the D for PF's to handle. Now all he mostly gets weakside blocks but he used to get on the ball ones more. Also, note the dropoff from being an all D team player before the Booze showed up. If there's one thing that Sloan hasn't done well with this team, it's utilize AK47 since Booze showed up.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:34 PM   #7735
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
assani,

not sure it matters whether he's the 3 or 4 a lot, but Sloan camped him out around the perimeter for that stinker year where he's better off slashing and distributing and crashing the glass.
His role in the game isn't defined by SF or PF offensively, he should always be moving on offense. Defensively he's way better at guarding the PF.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:37 PM   #7736
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Couple of things on Mookie before I head out:

I knew people would focus on his TS% - it's become the focus of many people in the second half of this thread. However, that's ignoring all of the other things he does well - which are plenty as evidenced by a consistently good PER for a guy who is so good at defense. This isn't Ben Wallace on the offensive end. It's also a great example of how young players who haven't played past 25 get overrated in this format. Mookies peak from 25-29 or so his TS% was a more than respectible 53% for a defensive stopper/pass first PG. But things get weighed down over the course of a career, in this case somewhat due to two early seasons that don't even count for this.

In addition, he really helped carry a team without any true inside presense for years. Mutombo and one other undrafted mediocre post presence for a few years was the closest thing they had to a post scorer. This not only hurts his shooting, but it also depressed his assist totals since it was a team of inefficient jump shooters/slashers. That is rectified in a huge way on my team.

In this format, Mark Aguirre (who I think was a good pick) would've gone like top 20 overall if we had done this after his 24yo season. Tons of other players both drafted and undrafted also would have had a similar escalation of value. Looking at career stats that include a decline phase (even an effective decline phase) for long lived players like Blaylock doesn't really give an apples to apples.

The general thought process here is "let's look at career averages for the retired guys, but let's extrapolate like 8 more years of current production (or better) for the young guys. That's imo a suboptimal way to evaluate things.

Anyways, I'd rather have Blaylock than, for example, Baron Davis who is inefficient shooting while taking far more shots, and isn't anywhere near the defender that Mookie is. There were like 3 other good PG options available, but none were close to as good on the ball as Mookie, which I think is important given the number of quality PGs that my team will be facing in this league. The fewer breakdowns on the point, the tougher my interior guys are. I understand why people dislike the pick, I just respectfully disagree and think he's better than the PGs who are certain to go in the next half-round or so of picks.
And if we had drafted Mookie after his age 24 season, he would still be looked at as a ridiculously inefficient player. His TS% in his 3 seasons up to age 24: 41.6, 45.5, and 46.5.


Also, as I said above, I think PG defense from a player whose height only lets him guard the other team's PG is not nearly as valuable as defense from any other position. I say this because many PGs aren't dominant scorers anyway, and several of them who are(Billups, GP, Kidd, etc.) will be able to take Mookie to the post, as Mookie is only 6 ft tall and 180 lbs and we know that they exaggerate those numbers too(fwiw I am no taller than 5ft 9.5in and they listed me at 6ft in college).
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:39 PM   #7737
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
oh and an upshot to clark's so far drafting strategy is that there are still some very good scorers left. there's one 3 left that it's boggling my mind is still available, and if he falls to clark in 55 picks i will be very upset.
this is very much against the rules btw.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:41 PM   #7738
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Thats awesome then and an added bonus because I think there are more quality SF/SGs left than PFs, so if AK47 can play the 4 then that makes me even happier with the pick.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:42 PM   #7739
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
My problem with taking Mookie over others is his lack of a high percentage 3 ball. Basically you've got a great post up guy, and another guy who is automatic from 12' but can't hit the ocean from 13'. It just looks like a recipe for a whole lot of bunching whenever Patrick gets to ball in the paint.
+1
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:44 PM   #7740
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Also this skinny guys being injury prone is way overblown, yes it does have some truth for bigmen because they are always banging inside, but for guards/sf's, there are tons of them that have been skinny and were very durable.

Tayshaun Prince, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Allen Iverson, Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, Tony Parker, etc. (would name more but they haven't been drafted).
Theres a difference between skinny and short(for NBA standards) and skinny and tall regarding injuries imo.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:46 PM   #7741
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
This was too soon for Lamar. That said, I don't hate it. With Glen and Hakeem you don't really need scoring, but getting someone who can handle the ball, rebound, pass, and play defense is always nice. Good pick.
Odom is a meh pick to me, which is strange since you'd think Odom would be more of a love him/hate him type player. Solid value, nothing spectacular imo.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:47 PM   #7742
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Ok, maybe I'm crazy but I thought Ak47 would be a sick fit on the Nash/Gnobe team and I would have picked him there for the awesome (and globally diverse) whiteness.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:48 PM   #7743
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also, as I said above, I think PG defense from a player whose height only lets him guard the other team's PG is not nearly as valuable as defense from any other position. I say this because many PGs aren't dominant scorers anyway, and several of them who are(Billups, GP, Kidd, etc.) will be able to take Mookie to the post, as Mookie is only 6 ft tall and 180 lbs and we know that they exaggerate those numbers too(fwiw I am no taller than 5ft 9.5in and they listed me at 6ft in college).
This is something I never thought of.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:48 PM   #7744
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also AK47 >> Battier even if you do stick him at the 3.

edit: I see assani already pointed this out in his write up.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:50 PM   #7745
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ok, maybe I'm crazy but I thought Ak47 would be a sick fit on the Nash/Gnobe team and I would have picked him there for the awesome (and globally diverse) whiteness.
Yeah that would've been awesome. Offensively, AK is a poor man's Marion so obviously that would've fit nicely, but defensively AK can run the 4 (whereas Marion is better at the 3) so you could've had an ever faster lineup.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:51 PM   #7746
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm not sure why you'd pick Odom with Ak47 still on the board, he's pretty much better in any possible way.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:52 PM   #7747
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also AK47 >> Battier even if you do stick him at the 3.

edit: I see assani already pointed this out in his write up.
Disagree. From when I've watched him, AK cannot guard 3's (his best talent is blocking/altering shots in the lane), and he gets blown by a decent amount. Battier is much better swing player defender.

Last edited by tbach24; 05-27-2008 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:53 PM   #7748
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Battier and AK are kind of different players. Plus sticking him with Marion would be redundant.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:57 PM   #7749
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

With all of this said, I've always felt that AK was not as good as his numbers. Those Jazz teams sucked and even though they didn't have many other good players, if he was that good they wouldn't have been bottom third both offensively and defensively. So either he disappears offensively on a good team or puts up numbers on a bad team. Also, another guy with injury issues for Assani.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:58 PM   #7750
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Disagree. From when I've watched him, AK cannot guard 3's (his best talent is blocking/altering shots in the lane), and he gets blown by a decent amount. Mistyped name redacted is much better swing player defender.
Might want to edit your post.
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