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Old 05-27-2008, 02:39 AM   #7626
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I don't see how anyone could say this with a straight face.
He isn't last 3 seasons he played 72, 80, and 61 games, that isn't injury prone imo. He also I think sat games out because their team was tanking too (not sure on this but I think he did).
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:44 AM   #7627
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Agreed. I don't want to debate it, because I don't really know what form my argument would take (have some ideas, but can't look into them now), but he's a player who, from watching him play a good amount, I feel is overrated by both a lot of observers and the stats. It might just be a prejudice against players with ugly shots, but he really seems to me like a guy whose career will consist of putting up numbers on fringe playoff teams that really have no chance of winning anything. He'd be 3rd option at best on a good team.

Sorta how I based my entire prop-bet with Bobbo on the fact that, "I just can't possibly picture an SI Commerative 2008 NBA Champion Utah Jazz Package coming on during sportscenter commercials."

Also, I'm in love with Seadood's team.
Can somebody explain to me what "overrated by the stats" means exactly? I just don't get it. Kevin Martin scores a fairly bulk amount of points at a very efficient rate. This is fact. YOU CANNOT DEBATE THAT. And unless you feel as if scoring at an efficient rate isn't important, then I don't see how you feel those stats overrate him.

Now I agree that hes injury prone and bad at defense...but the stats show that, so that couldn't have been what you meant when you said hes overrated by the stats. I feel as if this is just an excuse argument for "I don't like him and am biased, but really I have no good reason to not think hes a pretty good player."
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:47 AM   #7628
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

+1 for what assani says. i mean - a few people have told me "eh, lets see if we are still talking about Kevin Martin in 2 years".

he has an unorthodox release, but MANY NBA players have weird looking shots (cant list a few bc they havent been taken...) but a bunch shoot from their shoulder, or above their head, and so on. he has perfect release point, and his game isn't even fully predicated upon his shot. he also has handle for a 6'7 dude, and has ups.

bc he plays in a small market he doesn't get enough props, but if the west wasn't so crowded hed be an all star. put him in the east, and he gets in the ASG ahead of JJ.

anyway, im still very sold on the pick for epi, i think as a 2 or 3 option he's fantastic, his weakpoints have been addressed, and it was good value for the mid/late 3rd round slot. note that his frail/thin frame will likely cause him to miss (for his career) 10-20% of games, but there is no major injury (like ankles or anything) which forsee him retiring early.
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:48 AM   #7629
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Can somebody explain to me what "overrated by the stats" means exactly? I just don't get it. Kevin Martin scores a fairly bulk amount of points at a very efficient rate. This is fact. YOU CANNOT DEBATE THAT. And unless you feel as if scoring at an efficient rate isn't important, then I don't see how you feel those stats overrate him.

Now I agree that hes injury prone and bad at defense...but the stats show that, so that couldn't have been what you meant when you said hes overrated by the stats. I feel as if this is just an excuse argument for "I don't like him and am biased, but really I have no good reason to not think hes a pretty good player."
some of us actually watch games?

in my life i am about as big a data guy as you can find, but if there is an application that is unfit for data analyzation as a true indicator its nba basketball.
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:50 AM   #7630
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
He isn't last 3 seasons he played 72, 80, and 61 games, that isn't injury prone imo. He also I think sat games out because their team was tanking too (not sure on this but I think he did).

wtf is your definition of injury prone then? Hes a guy with a very thin frame who misses games EVERY SEASON due to injury. Historically these type of guys are: A.very likely to keep missing games every season due to injury, B.more likely to suffer a serious injury than other players, and C. unable to recover from serious injuries as quick as other players.

I would make a prop bet with you for any amount up to $10,000 if you want:

If Kevin Martin plays in only 50 games in a season first I win.

If Kevin Martin plays in all 82 games in a season first you win.
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:51 AM   #7631
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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some of us actually watch games?

in my life i am about as big a data guy as you can find, but if there is an application that is unfit for data analyzation as a true indicator its nba basketball.

What on earth do you see when watching a game that tells you that a guy who scores 23.7 points on 61.8% TS isn't a really good player(scoring wise at least, as I've admitted he has faults in other areas)??? I'm completely dumbfounded here. I'll sit back and listen....please do explain.
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:55 AM   #7632
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

<------2 game winning 3 pointers in 3 games tonight at 24 hour fitness
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:57 AM   #7633
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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<------2 game winning 3 pointers in 3 games tonight at 24 hour fitness
luckbox
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:59 AM   #7634
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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wtf is your definition of injury prone then? Hes a guy with a very thin frame who misses games EVERY SEASON due to injury. Historically these type of guys are: A.very likely to keep missing games every season due to injury, B.more likely to suffer a serious injury than other players, and C. unable to recover from serious injuries as quick as other players.

I would make a prop bet with you for any amount up to $10,000 if you want:

If Kevin Martin plays in only 50 games in a season first I win.

If Kevin Martin plays in all 82 games in a season first you win.
Injury prone is almost always getting injured for long periods of time. obv it's mad rare for someone to play 82 games a season. However if you want to lower it to say 76 games in a season, u can take 50 games and I will take 76 games for 10k, I am down with that. I feel if someone is "injury prone" the chances they play 50 or less games is greater than if they play 76 or more games.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:08 AM   #7635
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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luckbox
not even close....was insanely efficient tonight...should've shot more often to be honest. Probably something like 7/10 including 4 3s.

I've lost so much quickness since college days that if my shot isn't falling I'm not a great player anymore, but when they fall I can still be pretty damn effective. We still gonna try to get a 2p2 game this summer? I know my roomate, SirFelixCat here on 2p2, will play.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:09 AM   #7636
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

100% positive there will be 2p2 games. I play more bball than poker. (not that this means a whole lot) i'll be there in a week.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:09 AM   #7637
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Injury prone is almost always getting injured for long periods of time. obv it's mad rare for someone to play 82 games a season. However if you want to lower it to say 76 games in a season, u can take 50 games and I will take 76 games for 10k, I am down with that. I feel if someone is "injury prone" the chances they play 50 or less games is greater than if they play 76 or more games.
LOL no. Playing 76/82 games does not mean one is not injury prone, which is what you're arguing. Playing 82/82 games.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:10 AM   #7638
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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LOL no. Playing 76/82 games does not mean one is not injury prone, which is what you're arguing. Playing 82/82 games.
what if you just set an O/U line? something like 73+ you lose, 72- you win?
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:14 AM   #7639
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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LOL no. Playing 76/82 games does not mean one is not injury prone, which is what you're arguing. Playing 82/82 games.
I think we have different definitions of injury prone then, I feel like if someone is injury prone they have a better chance of playing 50 or less games than they do 76 or more.

82/82 games is ridiculous, especially in todays game, very few do it, especially ones who play 35+ mpg.

Anyway im going to bed, will respond in the morning.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:17 AM   #7640
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

What about like 54/80? 54 games would mean he missed 1/3 of the season. And 80 is reasonably healthy.

Also, I'd love to play some bball this summer. I'm sure I'm not as good as you guys but I've been playing a lot the last few months and one of my goals this summer is to play more / stay in shape
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:19 AM   #7641
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
what if you just set an O/U line? something like 73+ you lose, 72- you win?
I'm not really interested in that. I'm saying that hes likely to miss games at a high rate. I'm sure that maybe next year he'll play 74 or 75 games- I have no problem admitting that. But I think hes very likely to miss a lot of games sometime soon, and I don't think hes the type to ever play in every game(or at least it'd be a rare thing).
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:22 AM   #7642
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Guys its quite obvious Kevin Martin was the second best pick of the draft. McHale was the first, and Billups was the third best pick in the draft. There is no denying this.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:46 AM   #7643
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

was so hoping to get to pick tonight....
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:59 AM   #7644
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
What on earth do you see when watching a game that tells you that a guy who scores 23.7 points on 61.8% TS isn't a really good player(scoring wise at least, as I've admitted he has faults in other areas)??? I'm completely dumbfounded here. I'll sit back and listen....please do explain.
uhh i dunno the fact that he's played like 2 years maybe?

the fact that multiple people have ranked him above aguirre and barely anyone even reacted is lol.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:48 AM   #7645
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ePeen View Post
My list:

Eddie Jones
Kevin Martin
Joe Johnson
Michael Redd
Mark Aguirre
Alvin Robertson
Michael Finley
Dale Ellis
I forgot to ask this earlier, how is Kevin Martin so far ahead (or simply ahead, for that matter) of Dale Ellis? If you compare Ellis' 4 Seattle years and Martin's 2 Sacramento years they're basically identical (Ellis has a slight edge in every (i think) statistic except TS%). Sacramento has a faster pace than Seattle did as well. They also both had similar roles on their teams during these time periods.

What pushes KM so far over the top?
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:58 AM   #7646
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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What pushes KM so far over the top?
He is young, and some people here value someone having two great years and being 24 than someone having 3 great seasons and 6 good-decent seasons.

I think they are horribly incorrect but what are you going to do?
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:00 AM   #7647
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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uhh i dunno the fact that he's played like 2 years maybe?

the fact that multiple people have ranked him above aguirre and barely anyone even reacted is lol.
wtf? You said that when you watch him play you see things that the stat sheet doesn't tell you. The stat sheet clearly mentions how many years and games he has played, so that makes no sense.

Also listing one player you think he is better than is not an answer to my question.

So I'll ask you again to tell me what you're seeing when you watch him that the stat sheet isn't tell us.
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:06 AM   #7648
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
He is young, and some people here value someone having two great years and being 24 than someone having 3 great seasons and 6 good-decent seasons.

I think they are horribly incorrect but what are you going to do?
This is a good answer. Often times, young players will be placed at a premium because they haven't hit the "walls" that many older players have and will. So a lot of the picks are based on optimism. I dunno if that's incorrect, just a fact of this draft.

Lot of good picks in this draft, and can't comment on much that Bobbo and the others haven't already nailed imo. Most disappointing pick in the last 10 has been Mookie imo. The best is a tossup, but I really like Rashard's fit with his team. He was the guy I wanted with my next pick
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:16 AM   #7649
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
So I'll ask you again to tell me what you're seeing when you watch him that the stat sheet isn't tell us.

uhhh statistical significance..............also awful body, terrible form, v v low bball iq?
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:43 AM   #7650
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

lapoker17,

Nobody is saying that he has a great physique(sp?) or good form on his shot. I don't see why that matters though. The comment that started this was that he is "overrated by the stats." I questioned this and then you chimed in "well some of us actually watch the games." So I'm still trying to figure out which stats overrate him and why you feel that way. You keep giving crappy answers though imo.
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