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Old 05-08-2008, 06:53 PM   #726
EPiPeN11
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I've seen about 10 posts regarding this issue, so let me quote what was posted in the initial rules:





Seriously everyone just sit back, relax, and enjoy this thing. If someone doens't pick for a few days then spend that time discussing whatever tangent we're currently debating. Its not that big of a deal.
Honestly can we please just enforce the 24 hour rule like you posted? More than 24 hours is ridiculous. We don't even have to kick them out of the league, just give them an autopick and let the next person pick, with the person who got autopicked allowed to switch his pick if he wants to a person who hasn't been picked when he finally logs on.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:54 PM   #727
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by SHARK DOCTOR View Post
You guys understand we are not drafting a team that just looks good on paper right?...

These guys are supposed to start a team and play together, all starting from their prime.

As Assani has already mentioned - this does not mean Stockton or Malone are going to be putting up the same numbers they were putting up throughout their respective careers (as they wont be playing together) If thats the case, we'll be avaeraging 200 points per game - as everyone on our team is going to be a 20ppg guy.

I understand an argument can be made that they would maintain that level of play regardless of who their teammates were - but thats where I strongly disagree.

Stock put up amazing numbers - and was the Big Fundamental before TD took that name over...but its really difficult to see a guy (who would only use his right hand) be as efficient (if not more) than a guy like Chris Paul. It was a different game back then - and Stock and Malone were set in their Jerry Sloan strategy of playing simple, effective basketball. I dont think they would be AS effective in this new age league we are building right now.

You think Bob Cousy wouldve been as great as he was if he were just placed in the 90's to play with that new age NBA? (maybe not the best example - but you see what Im saying here?)

Stats are all well and good - but if you look at the players style (combined with their stats of course), it should be more influential in deciding who would be better suited for this game imo.

I was going to make the standard pick of Barkley or Malone or even Isiah, but why go standard...just because its standard? We're so used to looking back and stating the facts and stats that we're not looking at the possibility.

For a lot of newbies to the NBA - Chris Paul would be an instapick, as he is having one heck of a season this year. As most people who know the history of the NBA, we tend to look down at newbies...but - just becuze the newbie instapicks Paul doesnt mean its the wrong choice. And just because Stock is the obvious pick for NBA Historians, doesnt mean its the right pick.

I guess this whole draft is about who can make a better arguement for their players.

Though I have made an argument in this post (as well as my previous ones) - what I stated first in thsi post should hold true to every GM in this draft...all these guys are actually going to play. They arent going to stand on the court with a sheet of paper with all their stats written out. Lets see how they can play starting from their prime onwards with their new teammates and possibly new style of basketball.

edit: I dont see John Stockton adjusting too well
I think you underestimate Stockton a bit, but otherwise I think this is a really good post about building a team and how all stats aren't going to simply carry over to this league.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:55 PM   #728
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

The 24 hour rule is only for the first round, to make sure that people who signed up actually participate. Nobody so far has taken even 12 hours to pick.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:56 PM   #729
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by BiiiiigChips View Post
Lebron took a bad team the Finals but he didn't have to get through a team like the Celtics or Pistons to win the East like Michael did. Not to mention once you get through the East Magic's Lakers will be waiting for you.

The point of wether Lebron is better at 23 going on 24 than MJ is debatable but their age difference when they came into the league skews that so much so I think a better way to compare is to look at their careers up to this point which would be the first 5 seasons.(First 5 seasons discounting Jordan's 18 game season)Iin that case you gotta go with MJ. In his 3rd full season the guy won MVP of the league over legends like Magic and Bird. In his first 5 seasons he avgd 28, 37, 35, 32 and 33. Lebron has put up great stats in his first 5 seasons also but Jordan has scored more and Jordan also had a season of 32/8/8 and that came in his 4th season compared to Lebron doing a comparable 30/8/7 in his 5th season this year. Jordan won an MVP by his 5th full season and Lebron hasn't. Lebron took a bad team the Finals but he didn't have to get through a team like the Celtics or Pistons to win the East like Michael did. I'd say even Cleveland and Atlanta of that era are better than the teams the Cavs had to get to the Finals last year. What happened to Lebron in the Finals is the same that happenned to MJ in the Eastern Conference Playoffs. Run into an elite team with a one man gang and you'll get killed everytime. It just so happens Lebron didn't run into an elite team until the NBA Finals. I'm guessing Lebron wouldn't have one man banded his team through the western conference playoffs last year he just benefited from a very weak conference.

In Jordan's 6th full season he lead his team to the NBA championship and then proceeded to win the championship in the next 5 full seasons he played also. ! Taking down the Finals MVP in all 6. Lebron enters his 6th full season next year so to keep on pace with Jordan by the 11th full season in his career he will need to have won 6 championships, 5 league MVPs and 6 Finals MVPs. I think people forget the scope of what Jordan did. There is no argument he's the best ever and it's not even really close. Lebron and Kobe are awesome but they aren't better than Jordan at any age or any point of his career.

If you want to talk about a supporting cast MJ never had the most dominating inside force playing in his prime like Kobe did so I don't want to hear anything about supporting casts. Jordan had a good supporting cast, ever championship team does. But it wasn't legendary, Pippen was great but the team wasn't stacked with all-world players by any stretch. They had alot of solid vets and players that knew their role and when you have the best player in the world on your team you honestly don't need all that much help anyway you just need enough.

1. Its really unfair to compare Lebron and Jordan season by season since Lebron entered the league so much earlier. Comparing them by age would be much better imo.

2. Pippen gets so underrated by some people. Very likely Jordan never ever wins a title without him coming along. What would his legacy have looked like then?

3. Phil Jackson too.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:57 PM   #730
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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The 24 hour rule is only for the first round, to make sure that people who signed up actually participate. Nobody so far has taken even 12 hours to pick.
Can we please make this rule for all rounds, seriously there is no reason for someone to go over 24 hours without making a pick. If they know they are going away for a day or two, they can pm their top say 5 list to assani or someone else who is activley posting and not drafting ahead of them.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:57 PM   #731
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Obv a lot has yet to be decided, that's why I specifically said when there careers are over, Kobe/Lebron will probably both be able to make cases that they were as good, if not better than Jordan (especially Lebron).
It's doubtful for Kobe. He's 29 years old. Jordan turned 29 in 1993, after the first of his 3 peats. Jordan rather clearly had a better at age 29 than Kobe did. And Jordan's "decline phase" consisted of playing baseball for 2 years, followed by 3 more Finals MVPs. It would be a miracle if Kobe matched those accomplishments. Impossible? Of course not. But not really likely.

Lebron is a much different case because he's much younger (only 23). His career at 23 is better than Jordan's at 23. That said, there are a few question marks. One problem is that Lebron has been in the league for 5 years. He has more wear on his body than Jordan did at age 23. The bigger problem is that Jordan's peak was phenomenal. It's a lot more likely that Lebron has a better career than Jordan than Kobe. That said, it's still not that likely.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:58 PM   #732
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
1. Its really unfair to compare Lebron and Jordan season by season since Lebron entered the league so much earlier. Comparing them by age would be much better imo.

2. Pippen gets so underrated by some people. Very likely Jordan never ever wins a title without him coming along. What would his legacy have looked like then?

3. Phil Jackson too.
lol assani you are basacally saying my exact same arguments but like 5 hours later. But thanks for agreeing with me again.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:00 PM   #733
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Can we all agree to PM the next person after you draft as a courtesy and to keep the draft moving?
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:00 PM   #734
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Expansion teams. Please tell me where someone said Jordan wouldn't be able to drop 30+ points on the Wizards, I just pointed out that the league is harder overall than it was in the 90's mostly. Why do you keep bringing up the 80's like Jordan won a ton of championships during that era, will you at least acknowledge the league was a lot harder now than it was in the 90's?

I swear you guys need to learn what the words slightly and probably mean as well.
Dude I didn't say that. I said if he was able to avg 20 plus as an old man when he came back to play with the wizards a few years back what makes you think that if he didn't start his career in this generation that he wouldn't be able to drop his normal 30 or whatever it is? You have said more than once that jordan would have a harder time now then he did in his era be it 80s or 90s and I am saying that he would be just as dominant and would do it just as easy. I bring up the 80s because Jordan played the first 6 seasons of his career in the 80s and dominated. Of the last 3 decades that's ussually considered the best. I really don't see the drop off in talent in the 90s that you see. Maybe you can be more specific. I'm looking at all the players that were drafted in the 90s and I'm not seeing where good players stopped coming into the league.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:02 PM   #735
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

In addition, the rule that a player had to play at least one NBA game: what's the purpose? I'd think that posters here have seen more game footage of excluded players like Rose, Oden, and Beasley than they do of players who had their heyday in the 80s. Why not include them?
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:03 PM   #736
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
1. Its really unfair to compare Lebron and Jordan season by season since Lebron entered the league so much earlier. Comparing them by age would be much better imo.

2. Pippen gets so underrated by some people. Very likely Jordan never ever wins a title without him coming along. What would his legacy have looked like then?

3. Phil Jackson too.
Phil Jackson is underrated? Anybody could have coached those Bulls teams. Mike Brown, a complete nobody coach, rode LeBron to the finals.

I'm kind of curious to see if anyone actually drafts their coach before the final round, would be pretty dumb imo.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:03 PM   #737
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Expansion teams. Please tell me where someone said Jordan wouldn't be able to drop 30+ points on the Wizards,
Since when are the Wizards an expansion team?
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:05 PM   #738
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Dude I didn't say that. I said if he was able to avg 20 plus as an old man when he came back to play with the wizards a few years back what makes you think that if he didn't start his career in this generation that he wouldn't be able to drop his normal 30 or whatever it is? You have said more than once that jordan would have a harder time now then he did in his era be it 80s or 90s and I am saying that he would be just as dominant and would do it just as easy. I bring up the 80s because Jordan played the first 6 seasons of his career in the 80s and dominated. Of the last 3 decades that's ussually considered the best. I really don't see the drop off in talent in the 90s that you see. Maybe you can be more specific. I'm looking at all the players that were drafted in the 90s and I'm not seeing where good players stopped coming into the league.
slightly, do you know what that word means? Look at the players drafted from 1986-1990, those were much much weaker drafts compared to say the drafts from 1996-2000.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:05 PM   #739
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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You two (Assani and Epip) are funny.

Let me help.

Legitimate argument: "Way more international players in the league now."

Absurd argument with no basis in reality other than it sounds kind of cool and is possibly plausible as an anecdotal concept: "It wasn't cool to play basketball til the 80's. People grew up wanting to play ball because of the 'Jordan effect'."
Its not absurd at all. Impossible to quantify? Perhaps, but not absurd.

Take MMA for example. I think everyone would agree that the talent base in MMA is going to be much much better in 20 years than it is now because the popularity of it has increased so much that elite athlete kids choose it over other sports more often these days.

This seems like common sense to me, and I don't see how you could really argue it.


Moreover, you ignored my point about more advanced training at a younger age these days. Today every great basketball player is put into private leagues, goes to private high schools especially for basketball, and has a ton of coaching from the time he is little. You simply can't say that this doesn't make them much better.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:05 PM   #740
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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1. Its really unfair to compare Lebron and Jordan season by season since Lebron entered the league so much earlier. Comparing them by age would be much better imo.

2. Pippen gets so underrated by some people. Very likely Jordan never ever wins a title without him coming along. What would his legacy have looked like then?

3. Phil Jackson too.
You have to compare some how and seasons in the league is the best way to me. Even by strict to the day age I'd still go with Jordan.

I for one don't underrate Pippen he was a great defender and complement to Jordan. Every championship team needs two great players.

Phil was great every championship team needs a good coach too.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:07 PM   #741
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Since when are the Wizards an expansion team?
I misread his post and thought he said that Jordan couldn't drop points on the Wizards instead that he was playing for the Wizards.

And the Expansion teams comment was reffering to how there are more talent, but yet more teams so it's not as obvious.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:07 PM   #742
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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And stop talking about guys who haven't been drafted yet! Zomg.
Please stop this.

I made a rule. Several broke it, and when I try to enforce it you keep mocking it with comments like this, which doesn't help me one bit.

I GET IT: YOU THINK MY RULE IS STUPID. YOU'VE MADE THIS POINT A BUNCH ALREADY. MOVE ON.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:10 PM   #743
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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That's because at the time of u asking I had no problem with letting more people in. I thought the draft would be moving faster than it has been. Since it has been moving at a snails pace, I changed my mind (omg someone changed their mind) and decided we def shouldn't let anyone else in, cause the draft is taking so ridiculously long as is.
The draft is actually moving much quicker than I expected. I was very clear that the draft would be a casual pace. If you don't like that then quit.


Seriously, I'm sorry for lashing out so much today, but I wake up to 5 PMs and a ton of posts in this thread with different suggestions and critiques of this draft. I really can't please everyone, but I do try to listen to people's opinions and then make a quick decision. I'm trying my best. Please help me by just going with my decisions. Again, if you don't like the way I'm doing things then just drop out now.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:11 PM   #744
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Can we please make this rule for all rounds, seriously there is no reason for someone to go over 24 hours without making a pick. If they know they are going away for a day or two, they can pm their top say 5 list to assani or someone else who is activley posting and not drafting ahead of them.
No.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:19 PM   #745
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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No.
Ok well I will still stay in this draft, but do you care if I start another one of these (exact same idea, just a faster draft) for the more serious people who want a more speedy draft?
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:20 PM   #746
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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No.
oh...cmon...just do it.

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Old 05-08-2008, 07:26 PM   #747
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Can we please make this rule for all rounds, seriously there is no reason for someone to go over 24 hours without making a pick. If they know they are going away for a day or two, they can pm their top say 5 list to assani or someone else who is activley posting and not drafting ahead of them.
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No.
o/u on number of posters who give up on this in the coming months? 8.5.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:27 PM   #748
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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o/u on number of posters who give up on this in the coming months? 8.5.
over...and the fact that there is no time limit is probably the main reason.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:28 PM   #749
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Under, and yes I'll bet you Clark.
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Old 05-08-2008, 07:29 PM   #750
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Ok well since you didn't respond to my message Assani I am going to assume u don't care if I start an identical league with a faster draft process.
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