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Old 05-22-2008, 07:26 PM   #6351
tbach24
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
bobbo,

we can't analyze that kind of stuff just ask tbach
lol. until we get the government to start using their resources more appropriately (data on floor spacing is more important than studying the bubble phenomenon amirite?), then we will just have to speculate.

seriously though, camby doesn't really space the floor, as you don't have to guard him on his j too much. ditto for chandler, but he's a better offensive rebounder and dunker than camby IMO. chandler is also a better on the ball defender, but camby is much better at protecting the basket.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:27 PM   #6352
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
assani i responded to the post u bumped. i will go back and find it. its not that easy considering ive made 100s of posts in this thread. but hey, i want u to be happy and fulfilled.
You responded to a very small segment of my two posts.

In post #6276 I list two very long posts I made. One of them includes that ONE SMALL PARAGRAPH which you responded to. And your response is "assani, it doesnt really matter bc u will reject all the fringe players i throw on this list."

So even your response is basically "no comment." Let me make it easy for you:


Question #1: YOu initially said that I overestimated Hardaway's ability to stay healthy. I then pointed out(and gave four examples) that I never even estimated his ability to stay healhty, so how could I be overestimating it? You never responded to this. I then asked you if you were retracting your statement. Again you never reponded. Do you care to finally address this?

Question #2: You wrote that Penny only had a 1.5 year peak. I pointed out it was 3 years. You never addressed this. Do you care to address it now?

Question #3: You claimed that there were other players out there who were injured that put up Penny like stats. i responded by saying "You can't find them because they don't exist or have been drafted already. Obviously you can't list undrafted players here, but I've repeatedly challenged you to list 20 players out of the 74 drafted who have put up a season as good as his at 24 years of age or younger and you've never done it. And if you really want to include undrafted players in your list then list all of the drafted players and PM me the few undrafted players in which you think have put up a better year than his at such a young age." You responded by refusing to do this because "I would reject all the fringe players. I then responded to you and said that I wouldn't reject everyone and that I had just done a very fair analysis of Hill vs Penny. For someone who supposedly likes to debate a lot, you sure were avoiding debating here. Do you care to debate this issue now?

Again post #6276 has all of this so please don't claim that you just can't find it.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:29 PM   #6353
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
assani
Unlike you, I respond to your posts as soon as I get to them...no need to bump your replies for me. As you can see, I just got up to this point in the thread, and I replied immediately.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:29 PM   #6354
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
assani fisher
one more time, no need for this. I don't think I've ever skipped a post that you wrote specifically towards me. You though have done this several time or only quoted part of my post(like you did in this case) and ignored several of my other points.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:30 PM   #6355
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

jesus christ, your worse than a high school teacher.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:31 PM   #6356
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
He did have some stiff competition for All D teams in those days, and he obv wasn't a great help defender. Often times he'd be the one guarding their opponents best interior, with Hakeem being the help guy. Like most great post defenders (Duncan, Laimbeer, Sheed, XXXX), he had quick feet but didn't leave them that often, and most importantly their hands were usually a foot away from the ball at all times.

I think that it's rare to find a big man who can be a great help and post defender, Duncan and Ewing are good examples, because what makes you great in one can hurt you in the other. If you leave your feet a lot, you are going to get caught more often. And when you do alter a shot, you are rarely in position to get the rebound.

That's kinda why I always felt, and this is just from my own perception, that Ewing in his prime was a better overall defender than Hakeem or Drobinson, and that Duncan is better than all of them.

thanks for the analysis.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:32 PM   #6357
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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waaaaay more likely than .000001%. the dude is absolutely insane. all it will take is one little thing to set him off. if its not a fight with someone in the stands it might be him drop kicking the other team's mascot and eating his heart or something.
I agree that its very likely SOMETHING will happen, and most likely that SEVERAL THINGS will happen. I was just saying that its very unlikely that its the exact same thing that happened in real life.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:33 PM   #6358
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by cowboy2579 View Post
I don't see how Thorpe is such a great pick while Chandler is mediocre. Chandler is a better defender w/ similar offense + 3 inches IMO.
You do realize has led his team in points scored for a season before right? Tyson Chandler isn't even close to a #1 option on a team. Has he ever even been a #3 option??
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:34 PM   #6359
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
thanks for the analysis.
yw, but keep in mind that I have no clue what I'm talking about, and my memory can be selective. I thought Chambers handled Shaq their first few meetings I saw, and it turns out he avg'd 24 pts on .550+ shooting.. Shaq did have 5 tos/game though...
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:36 PM   #6360
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
lol assani is a newb

click "full court" on the top
ah, thanks....this is awesome.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:37 PM   #6361
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

am I the only one who has absolutely NO clue what Victor and Assani are arguing about?
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:40 PM   #6362
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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am I the only one who has absolutely NO clue what Victor and Assani are arguing about?
I thought it was a lovers quarrel, and I was told to stay out of those.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:41 PM   #6363
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
don't understand how Chanlder and Thorpe's offense is at all "similar"
Thorpe is prolly a better creator (although he played his prime b4 i watched the NBA w/ any frequency) but not as big or explosive.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:41 PM   #6364
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Question #1: YOu initially said that I overestimated Hardaway's ability to stay healthy. I then pointed out(and gave four examples) that I never even estimated his ability to stay healhty, so how could I be overestimating it? You never responded to this. I then asked you if you were retracting your statement. Again you never reponded. Do you care to finally address this?
look assani, u make many statements about how assani will be healthier longer if he could do it over or have todays techniques. this is overrating it imo. just the mere statement. you never put in the possibility that he can get injured sooner. what if they find out he needs micro after just 1 year in the league? and it fails (which it most likely will bc his knee construction sux.)

you just flat out say, he will be better off today. and that i disagree with. that is overestimation. imo.

Quote:
Question #2: You wrote that Penny only had a 1.5 year peak. I pointed out it was 3 years. You never addressed this. Do you care to address it now?
penny had a decent rookie year for a rookie. lets leave that out.

he had a spectacular 2nd season. a very good 3rd year. and only played 59 games the next year. so more like a 2.5 year peak but, he was really only out of this world for 1 year, and very good the rest. its fun to be nitty, isnt it?

Quote:
Question #3: You claimed that there were other players out there who were injured that put up Penny like stats. i responded by saying "You can't find them because they don't exist or have been drafted already. Obviously you can't list undrafted players here, but I've repeatedly challenged you to list 20 players out of the 74 drafted who have put up a season as good as his at 24 years of age or younger and you've never done it. And if you really want to include undrafted players in your list then list all of the drafted players and PM me the few undrafted players in which you think have put up a better year than his at such a young age." You responded by refusing to do this because "I would reject all the fringe players. I then responded to you and said that I wouldn't reject everyone and that I had just done a very fair analysis of Hill vs Penny. For someone who supposedly likes to debate a lot, you sure were avoiding debating here. Do you care to debate this issue now?
NONONONONONONON. WTF DO U READ. IVE SAID THIS A SHT LOAD OF TIMES. THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS WHO HAD EXCELLENT OR VERY GOOD STRETCHES FOR 1-2 YEARS. THEY WOULD BE BETTER DRAFT PICKS IN THIS DRAFT IF THEY WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY GOT HURT, SO WE COULD ARGUE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE KEPT UP THAT PEAK. INSTEAD THEY REGRESSED AND HAD MEDIOCRE CAREERS.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:43 PM   #6365
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
well i made that post over an hour ago so i realized what was up. i think. never can tell.

still kinda funny i get on assanis shtlist for taking 10min to respond to his 200 word post.

oh ya, the other thing about his post was asking me to come up with 20 players. ya assani, sorry i didnt whip that up before the time limit.
You're not on my shtlist...thats what I don't understand. You've apparently made this debate personal. You've attributed things to me that I never said(I overestimated Penny's ability to stay healthy), you've posted obnoxious remarks when all I did was bump a post for you to reply to when you replyed to posts that were made AFTER MINE but not mine, and you continued to post sarcastic remarks even after our debate had died down. I just don't get it...Can't people debate and still be friendly???
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:43 PM   #6366
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
am I the only one who has absolutely NO clue what Victor and Assani are arguing about?
im really having trouble figuring it out too. basically, i havent addressed every single one of assanis post in a timely fashion and i posted responses to others first (obv assani took great disrespect to this.)

i think i may fail assani 101.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:45 PM   #6367
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
jesus christ, your worse than a high school teacher.
You+are = you're. I think I pointed this out once already, and you chalked it up to posting quickly.


Sincerely,

High School Teacher
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:47 PM   #6368
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

tried and true: lag in picks = needless, boring ass debate
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:51 PM   #6369
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
You're not on my shtlist...thats what I don't understand. You've apparently made this debate personal. 1 You've attributed things to me that I never said(I overestimated Penny's ability to stay healthy), you've posted obnoxious remarks when all I did was bump a post for you to reply to when 2 you replyed to posts that were made AFTER MINE but not mine, and you continued to post sarcastic remarks even after our debate had died down. I just don't get it...Can't people debate and still be friendly???
and u repeatedly called me a troll and insinuated i was disingenious and making things up.

1. this is implied in your posts by when u think he will automatically last longer next time or with todays tech. not a given.

2. here, ill spell it out to u. i play poker. watch sports. eat. watch porn. and of course read 2p2. mostly all at the same time.

when i click on this thread i see ur post and its long and def gonna require meticulous wording and crystal clear language.

then, i see a bunch of other posts, that are short and with ppl who will understand my points and mebbe even laugh at some quick jokes.

sooooooooooo, i read the short posts and make some quick remarks. mebbe i get in a big hand. mebbe they bust out the double dildo. sorry i cant remember my distraction at the time.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:52 PM   #6370
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

double dildo ftw
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:53 PM   #6371
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
06-07 Spurs: 5th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
05-06 Heat: 7th in offensive rating, 9th in defensive rating
04-05 Spurs: 8th in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
03-04 Pistons: 18th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
02-03 Spurs: 7th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
01-02 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
00-01 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 21st in defensive rating
99-00 Lakers: 4th in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
98-99 Spurs: 11ts in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
97-98 Bulls: 8th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
96-97 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating
95-96 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
94-95 Rockets: 6th in offensive rating, 12th in defensive rating
93-94 Rockets: 15th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
92-93 Bulls: 2nd in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
91-92 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating

90-91 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
89-90 Pistons: 11th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
88-89 Pistons: 7th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
87-88 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 9th in defensive rating
86-87 Lakers: 1st in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
85-86 Celtics: 3rd in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
84-85 Lakers: 1st in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
83-84 Celtics: 5th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
82-83 76ers: 5th in offensive rating, 5th in defensive rating
81-82 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 10th in defensive rating
80-81 Celtics: 5th in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating


I've bolded the years in which the champ was rated higher on offense than on defense. Only twice has a team won without being top 10 on D. Four times that has happened on offense.

Also....

07-08 Spurs: 15th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
07-08 Lakers: 3rd in offensive rating, 5th in defensive rating
07-08 Celtics: 9th in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
07-08 Pistons: 6th in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating


You'll note that four out of the top 5 defensive teams from this year are still alive. The #2 team is the Rockets, who also made the playoffs and won 55 games despite losing Yao for a large part of the year.
this does nothing to disprove my assertion that a lot of you are overrating individual defenders in this draft. nor does it establish that by building a team of the best individual defenders (at the cost of offense) you give yourself a "better" shot at a title. i'm sure you can see that.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:54 PM   #6372
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

yeah this thread goes from having awesome hypothetical sports debate to being completely intolerable when new picks aren't being made. It makes me want to die.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:54 PM   #6373
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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you replyed to posts that were made AFTER MINE but not mine


hahah this is hilarious.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:54 PM   #6374
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
look assani, u make many statements about how assani will be healthier longer if he could do it over or have todays techniques. this is overrating it imo. just the mere statement. you never put in the possibility that he can get injured sooner. what if they find out he needs micro after just 1 year in the league? and it fails (which it most likely will bc his knee construction sux.)

you just flat out say, he will be better off today. and that i disagree with. that is overestimation. imo.



penny had a decent rookie year for a rookie. lets leave that out.

he had a spectacular 2nd season. a very good 3rd year. and only played 59 games the next year. so more like a 2.5 year peak but, he was really only out of this world for 1 year, and very good the rest. its fun to be nitty, isnt it?



NONONONONONONON. WTF DO U READ. IVE SAID THIS A SHT LOAD OF TIMES. THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLAYERS WHO HAD EXCELLENT OR VERY GOOD STRETCHES FOR 1-2 YEARS. THEY WOULD BE BETTER DRAFT PICKS IN THIS DRAFT IF THEY WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY GOT HURT, SO WE COULD ARGUE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE KEPT UP THAT PEAK. INSTEAD THEY REGRESSED AND HAD MEDIOCRE CAREERS.

I made the statement that knowing about a player's condition at age 24 instead of misdiagnosing it and not finding out about it until age 26 would only help us deal with his condition and would increase the chances of him staying healthy.

I also made the statement that the type of surgery we were talking about was "invented" in the late 80s and early 90s. In 1997 it was still very young and in development. Eleven years later the surgery is more advanced and better done. This would only increase the chances that Penny would stay healthy.

You said that I was overestimating Penny's chances of health by these two statements. Please explain exactly where you think I'm overestimating. Also you're completely wrong that I dismiss the chances that Penny gets injured sooner, as I specifically admitted that was a possibility(although less likely than in real life due to the two above reasons). I also do not ever say "he WILL BE better off today." I say HE IS LIKELY to be better off today. Again, I never say any definitive statements. I merely presented the facts and let people draw their own conclusions.

2.5 does not equal 1.5. If you're trying to make an argument and you're off by 40% then I'm going to call you out on that. LOL if you think that makes me a nit. 40% is not nittish.



Regarding the third point. Here was your exact statement:

"why cant i find a bunch of dudes with similar very short awesome peaks and say, well, mebbe they woulda continued it bc of abc."

Notice that you said SIMILAR very short awesome peaks.

My reponse to this is that there are no players with SIMILAR peaks except for maybe 20 of the guys drafted in round 1.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:57 PM   #6375
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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im really having trouble figuring it out too. basically, i havent addressed every single one of assanis post in a timely fashion and i posted responses to others first (obv assani took great disrespect to this.)

i think i may fail assani 101.
Where did I take disrespect to this? Again, you're the one thats seemingly made things personal, not me.

All I did was bump my posts three times to try to get you to respond to them. You called this immature and then proceded to be sarcastic and obnoxious. I have no clue why you did this and didn't just answer the posts. I have no clue why you think I feel disrespected or have you on my shtlist- I have no problem with you; I just wanted you to address the point, and other than bumping them like I did, I couldn't think of any other way to get you to address them.

Perhaps you can tell me: How in the future should I get you to reply to posts of mine that you've ignored while carrying on other aspects of the debate?
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