Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-22-2008, 02:27 PM   #6251
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
IMO it's not very valuable when it comes to Battier. He is absolutely not a below average player. If you can shoot the 3 consistently well, then you are at worst a small + offensively. Add in the fact that he's an awesome defender and you've got yourself a very good player. That's Battier right now, not sure how he was earlier in his career, but if it's more of the same, you can't argue against Battier.
this is positively untrue, and I would love to name names, but than I'd get banned. Let me just say that although Battier shoots the 3 well, he does absolutely nothing else well offensively, hasn't experienced his decline yet (which will bring down his stats even further), and the thing he does well, he does only 3.2 times a game. This year Battier, even with playing all but 2 games, is 27th this year (where he took a ton of threes!) in 3ps. "Wow". Again, would love to list some guys who shot the 3 well and more of it to disprove the "small + offensively," but for now just say you're horribly wrong.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:27 PM   #6252
Steroid Boy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Steroid Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Backpacking Bananas
Posts: 42,156
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by D104 View Post
I keep doing b-ref searches, trying to come up with players that meet various criteria. Ts>x and Reb/g>y, etc.

Michael ****ing Jordan comes up in every one of my searches. There is absolutely nothing the man couldn't do. Its crazy.

D
qft
Steroid Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:28 PM   #6253
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 18,272
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

xorbie,

PM me those guys? I'm curious to hear what others are thinking.

D
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:31 PM   #6254
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also if you went Battier this round odds are you would either get a good post scorer that is horrible defensively not good or a good post defender that's a 0 offensively. Right now there are still guys who are good but not great at both. It honestly matters what your trying to do. There are still big men who can run with Nash available, they are either young, injury prone, not good defensively or had short peaks. Right now you gotta start digging. Having a team with 3 guards is good I guess but in a league where point guards and centers are the hardest things to get good players at........I guess you can go for another wing.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #6255
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
this is positively untrue, and I would love to name names, but than I'd get banned. Let me just say that although Battier shoots the 3 well, he does absolutely nothing else well offensively, hasn't experienced his decline yet (which will bring down his stats even further), and the thing he does well, he does only 3.2 times a game. This year Battier, even with playing all but 2 games, is 27th this year (where he took a ton of threes!) in 3ps. "Wow". Again, would love to list some guys who shot the 3 well and more of it to disprove the "small + offensively," but for now just say you're horribly wrong.
See, this is one of the times when stats can both help and hurt us. Houston is an incredibly slow paced team. That 3.2 per game would increase on other teams. With players like T-Mac and Yao (or in this case, just Deron Williams), you don't really want a high usage guy, just a player who will make teams pay if they don't guard him. And when they do guard him, that's a small forward who won't be involved in the paint. Just because you have low usage and don't add anything else to the offense, doesn't make you a bad offensive player. I guess I'll add in the caveat that you wouldn't want to make him a major player in your offense, but given the offensive depth of this draft, I really like Battier.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:38 PM   #6256
TheQuietAnarchist
Formerly xorbie
 
TheQuietAnarchist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,826
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Also if you went Battier this round odds are you would either get a good post scorer that is horrible defensively not good or a good post defender that's a 0 offensively. Right now there are still guys who are good but not great at both. It honestly matters what your trying to do. There are still big men who can run with Nash available, they are either young, injury prone, not good defensively or had short peaks. Right now you gotta start digging. Having a team with 3 guards is good I guess but in a league where point guards and centers are the hardest things to get good players at........I guess you can go for another wing.
Thing is with Nash and Gnobe you just don't need post scoring in the sense of "give this guy the ball and let him do his thing". A guy who doesn't do anything on offense except set picks and catch passes around the basket and finish would be fine, more than fine really.
TheQuietAnarchist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:41 PM   #6257
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
Thing is with Nash and Gnobe you just don't need post scoring in the sense of "give this guy the ball and let him do his thing". A guy who doesn't do anything on offense except set picks and catch passes around the basket and finish would be fine, more than fine really.
QFT, but you'd want an athlete IMO
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #6258
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
See, this is one of the times when stats can both help and hurt us. Houston is an incredibly slow paced team. That 3.2 per game would increase on other teams. With players like T-Mac and Yao (or in this case, just Deron Williams), you don't really want a high usage guy, just a player who will make teams pay if they don't guard him. And when they do guard him, that's a small forward who won't be involved in the paint. Just because you have low usage and don't add anything else to the offense, doesn't make you a bad offensive player. I guess I'll add in the caveat that you wouldn't want to make him a major player in your offense, but given the offensive depth of this draft, I really like Battier.
Real fast: I agree with the bolded, but it also means that you generally won't impact the offensive end often.

but you see it's not fair to cherry pick. Battier has never been a high usage player, and this is in spite the fact he's played on a few different team makeups. (I mean, Rockets w/o Tmac; Rockets w/o Yao; Rockets w/ both; Memphis w/ Pau; etc.) So - yes, Battier will be efficient, yes, he will never hurt you offensively, but no, he's not ever going to be even a 3rd option.

Jesus, Rockets fans and NBA fans complained for the longest time the biggest hole was the Rockets had no go to scorer outside of the big 2 which led to scoring droughts - Battier does his stuff, but he just doesnt impact the offensive end often. You mentioned the Rockets pace factor as well, which is a fine observation, but there still were a bunch of teams that played slower. (Portland, Detroit, SAS, etc.) They were 21st this year - I suppose if you put Battier on the Nuggets he would shoot 5 3s a game rather than 4. Fine.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #6259
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
Thing is with Nash and Gnobe you just don't need post scoring in the sense of "give this guy the ball and let him do his thing". A guy who doesn't do anything on offense except set picks and catch passes around the basket and finish would be fine, more than fine really.
In this league I'm not as sure about. B/c defensively you can have 2 great defenders who are great help defenders and pick up the slack, but offensively if you have 0s, I guess they can set picks but a lot of teams are going to have 5 good players on the court atleast starting and I don't think Manu and Nash take nearly enough shots although they could in this league to be a sick scoring duo that you don't have to worry about scoring from bigs. 1 thing about scoring from bigs is 1 they are usually much more efficient although both Manu and Nash are efficient but they also get other teams in foul trouble and it also is easier to get boards when your in the paint and crashing the glass. IDK, I personally wouldn't imagine going guard again this early but then again I'm haven't been a real proponent of going early swing b/c there are so many swing guys who can play the 2/3.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:49 PM   #6260
hoyasnaxa
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Beijing
Posts: 4,462
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I am still very surprised at some omissions thus far, 1 guy in particular. Interesting discussion though and I realize now I know nothing about 80s basketball.
hoyasnaxa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 02:59 PM   #6261
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
dude, i said that it has its flaws, not that its a worthless stat. the point is PER rates battier as a below average player; this should mean something. the other two metrics favor him quite well. which means the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
bad logic bobbo
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:04 PM   #6262
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
Real fast: I agree with the bolded, but it also means that you generally won't impact the offensive end often.

but you see it's not fair to cherry pick. Battier has never been a high usage player, and this is in spite the fact he's played on a few different team makeups. (I mean, Rockets w/o Tmac; Rockets w/o Yao; Rockets w/ both; Memphis w/ Pau; etc.) So - yes, Battier will be efficient, yes, he will never hurt you offensively, but no, he's not ever going to be even a 3rd option.

Jesus, Rockets fans and NBA fans complained for the longest time the biggest hole was the Rockets had no go to scorer outside of the big 2 which led to scoring droughts - Battier does his stuff, but he just doesnt impact the offensive end often. You mentioned the Rockets pace factor as well, which is a fine observation, but there still were a bunch of teams that played slower. (Portland, Detroit, SAS, etc.) They were 21st this year - I suppose if you put Battier on the Nuggets he would shoot 5 3s a game rather than 4. Fine.
Just wanted to say that I would NEVER want Battier to try to create his own shot. Depending on the offense, there are only really first or second (rarely 3rd) options in the playmaking offense. Battier is a role player, but really does his job. He is and never will be a scorer and that's fine.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:12 PM   #6263
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
bad logic bobbo
huh? what? that Battier is somewhere above being a below avg offensive player (which PER shows him to be) and below an elite offensive player (which ORtg shows him to be) ???
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:18 PM   #6264
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
huh? what? that Battier is somewhere above being a below avg offensive player (which PER shows him to be) and below an elite offensive player (which ORtg shows him to be) ???
Okay, Battier is a below average offensive player. There is no denying that. He can't do anything besides shoot. 1v1 he probably would get beaten by Candace Parker (that's a joke). You put him in the right offense (IE one where he can camp in the corner), and all of a sudden, not only are his offensive flaws hidden, but he can actually provide a positive benefit to his team by hitting 39% of his 3 pointers, above the league average. So what if he doesn't rack up the rebounds and assists that would inflate his PER, he doesn't need to. There are other guys who will be more involved in the offense who can do that for him.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:28 PM   #6265
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
Okay, Battier is a below average offensive player. There is no denying that. He can't do anything besides shoot. 1v1 he probably would get beaten by Candace Parker (that's a joke). You put him in the right offense (IE one where he can camp in the corner), and all of a sudden, not only are his offensive flaws hidden, but he can actually provide a positive benefit to his team by hitting 39% of his 3 pointers, above the league average. So what if he doesn't rack up the rebounds and assists that would inflate his PER, he doesn't need to. There are other guys who will be more involved in the offense who can do that for him.
she wouldnt say that
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:36 PM   #6266
BiiiiigChips
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BiiiiigChips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SOCAL
Posts: 7,465
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
she wouldnt say that
LMAO ! I'm sure the WNBA marketing dept would be happy to know that their ads have gotten through to at least two of us.
BiiiiigChips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 03:41 PM   #6267
tdarko
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tdarko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 13,183
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Candace Cameron>Candace Parker
tdarko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:03 PM   #6268
lapoker17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FEELING YOU
Posts: 8,960
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbach24 View Post
Okay, Battier is a below average offensive player. There is no denying that. He can't do anything besides shoot. 1v1 he probably would get beaten by Candace Parker (that's a joke). You put him in the right offense (IE one where he can camp in the corner), and all of a sudden, not only are his offensive flaws hidden, but he can actually provide a positive benefit to his team by hitting 39% of his 3 pointers, above the league average. So what if he doesn't rack up the rebounds and assists that would inflate his PER, he doesn't need to. There are other guys who will be more involved in the offense who can do that for him.
this is all fine, but he went in the 3rd round.
lapoker17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:07 PM   #6269
BobboFitos
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BobboFitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 72,764
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by lapoker17 View Post
this is all fine, but he went in the 3rd round.
exactly, thank you rob. basically i love shane, he's a quality addition... but not for the 3rd round.
BobboFitos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:40 PM   #6270
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

agghhh. where is everyone today? can anyone get in touch with mmbt0ne? we need to get to nicholasp before the weekend!
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:42 PM   #6271
nath
the second coming of the second coming
 
nath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rust and Marty, a hundred years
Posts: 67,703
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdarko View Post
Candace Cameron>Candace Parker
Don't underestimate D.J. Tanner. She was nasty in the low post. You know, big ass and all.
nath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:45 PM   #6272
battschr
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere where I don\'t know where I am.
Posts: 2,931
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Man...a run of my targets just went...I'm at a loss w/ whom to draft next.
battschr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:46 PM   #6273
D104
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
D104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In a better place.
Posts: 18,272
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
exactly, thank you rob. basically i love shane, he's a quality addition... but not for the 3rd round.
I agree with this, fwiw. Shane's great, but if your requirements are hustle guy that plays great D that can hit the 3 at 38%+, I think there are more guys out there so that you can take a player that is a little more "unique" in the 3rd. I could be proven wrong, though, maybe Shane is the only one.

D
D104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 04:51 PM   #6274
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

+1. Like I said to begin with, we've got a 30 year talent pool here. There are other Battier's out there.
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2008, 05:00 PM   #6275
tbach24
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tbach24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: @tbach2
Posts: 11,476
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Eh I guess. For me it's not "OMG THATS AWFUL" it's just that I think it's solid and was playing a little devil's advocate. FWIW, it's not a team-killing pick, but it doesn't make his team that great either. Solid though.
tbach24 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive