Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2008, 09:51 PM   #5976
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
im pretty sure i responded to it. go ahead and bump it again if it was unsatisfactory and i will be sure to rifle it to the time of the to-do list.


Maybe I missed it, but yesterday I asked you to respond to it and you said that you were getting around to it. Then I said that I'm leaving for the night. I never saw one post after that where you ever discussed Penny yet alone responded to those 2 posts.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 09:52 PM   #5977
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

and finally caught up!
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 09:52 PM   #5978
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Do you really think Kiki>Mullin or are you just looking to debate?

The allstars, MVP votes, and All NBA Teams are telling imo.
Nah, mullin is prob better, I just don't think by as much as people are making it to be. I think Mullin should've gone higher than he did too. Also, I just thought the all star game and mvp votes were a weird stat to throw out there.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 09:52 PM   #5979
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Also, is Elton Brand really an "awesome defender"? I realizes hes above average, but when I think "awesome" I think top 2 or 3 in the league at his position, and I wouldn't even call Brand a top 5 big man defender in today's NBA.

That team is going to struggle on D for sure.
Who would you put in the top 5?

Duncan, KG? Then. I'm pretty sure every guy you put in your top 5 is picked, if not just put XXXX.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 09:55 PM   #5980
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEbenhoe View Post
Please tell me you didnt really just use all star games and mvp voting to make a point.

Off the top of my head I can think of one completely awesome player who never made an all star game in his career, I'm sure there are probably more who made none or few.
Well since those don't count can you please explain why Kiki> Mullin? I know I picked Mullin so I'm biased, but Mullin could have gone at 40 and no one would have said it was a bad pick.

Mullin was more efficient, a much better passer, a better rebounder, anda better defender. Mullin also had a very high 5 season peak (like Kiki), but also was a very good player into his mid 30's.

Many have also said Mullin is an underrated defender. When I made the pick I didn't even care if he was bad or average, but people seem to think he was average at worst. You don't want to put him 1-1 with a prolific scorer, but he isn't the type of player that will kill your defense making up for his problems.

All of this, plus Mullin still scored at a 25+ per game clip for 5 consecutive seasons, so Kiki's scoring peak isn't even that much of an advantage. Kiki also played for those crazy Nuggets teams (Mullin played under Nelson yes, but not exactly the same thing).

I just don't get why you are expecting us to argue why Mullin>> Kiki, when it should be you convincing a vast majority of people in this thread why Kiki> Mullin.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 09:55 PM   #5981
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEbenhoe View Post
Nah, mullin is prob better, I just don't think by as much as people are making it to be. I think Mullin should've gone higher than he did too. Also, I just thought the all star game and mvp votes were a weird stat to throw out there.
Kiki was definitely an elite scorer. His TS% is insanely high for a great scorer, with that being said he probally should have gone ahead of a lot of other pure scorers but his peak is not exceptional long and his D is terrible and of those picked last round the only other guy who I think truly brings terrible D on top of Kiki is Redd and Kiki should have easily gone before him. Personally I think swing players who play good D and maybe aren't as great of scorers are more valuable in this especially when you have teams with MJ, Kobe, etc. and need to be guarded but I guess that can also be addressed later with rediculous wing defenders who can't do much else since Kiki is so good offensively.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 09:56 PM   #5982
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 65,792
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post


Maybe I missed it, but yesterday I asked you to respond to it and you said that you were getting around to it. Then I said that I'm leaving for the night. I never saw one post after that where you ever discussed Penny yet alone responded to those 2 posts.
assani, tell me what post you want me to respond to, or what question u want answered and will address it. im not gonna reread 3 pages of posts and try to guess which post u didnt think i answered sufficiently, when we had a 50 post exchange.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:01 PM   #5983
NozeCandy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NozeCandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: lol goofybawler
Posts: 29,251
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Jesus Christ, learn how to multi-quote. At least that way all your thoughts from 4 pages ago are contained in one spot so I can more effectively scroll past a bunch of stuff that has mostly been rehashed a bunch.
NozeCandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:04 PM   #5984
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
dont want to get into too much more discussion on kiki vs aguirre, (i looked at both intensely prior to my selection) but kiki doesnt just have a scoring edge on agguire - he is truly elite. as in, he's a better scorer than half (probably more) of the first round picks. aguirre is also a very good scorer, but you cant run your offense through him like you can with kiki. so although kiki offers you nothing else, what he does offer you is very important (duh, scoring) and he does it so well it's hard to match it. agguire does something very well (but not elite) and everything else at a below average clip. both are very similar, and so neither is probably ">>" or whatever. weird thing is i think JoA's team would've benefitted more from Kiki, and MEB's team more from Aguirre.
This post is excellent.

I really don't have an opinion on whether or not they were great picks, but I thought it was weird that Kiki garnered so much hate, then two picks later Aguirre has gotten all of this love.

[edit] Also the Kiki D defense (lol pun ftw!), is terribly bad considering we are using Aguirre as a control. Neither of them were any good, and neither of them were that much better.

So why does Aguirre have a offensive rating worse than his defensive, while Kiki's is 3 points higher? I think that's pretty telling considering played for worse teams than Aguirre.

Not that I think he's better, it's just an observation.

Last edited by Seadood228; 05-21-2008 at 10:11 PM.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:06 PM   #5985
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
This post is excellent.

I really don't have an opinion on whether or not they were great picks, but I thought it was weird that Kiki garnered so much hate, then two picks later Aguirre has gotten all of this love.
I don't think its as much Kiki getting hate as people hating on the statements that Kiki > all SF's picked in 2nd round.

I liked the Kiki pick a lot.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:12 PM   #5986
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
I don't think its as much Kiki getting hate as people hating on the statements that Kiki > all SF's picked in 2nd round.

I liked the Kiki pick a lot.
Like I said, that post was hyperbole for the point of discussion, and I've obviously weakened from that stance since:

Quote:
Nah, mullin is prob better, I just don't think by as much as people are making it to be. I think Mullin should've gone higher than he did too.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:17 PM   #5987
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

You posted that while I was writing my post. So yea, its weakened in the past 10 minutes.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:21 PM   #5988
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think the Kiki pick is hated for a few reasons:

1. Kiki benefitted a lot from playing on those Nuggets teams
2. He has a way worse rep than Aguirre defensively
3. MEb "lol, my pick was so awesome, he's better than Mullin."

That said... relying on DWS or DRtg (which are the same thing) is a little lol. It's highly team dependant and it's really all we have, but some elite defensive guards have pretty bad DRtgs, too. Aguirre was a pretty key guy on two Detroit championship teams with great defenses. Is he the best defender? No, of course not. Is it going to matter? Well I have plenty of picks left to get a good wing defender.

Aguirre's going to give me 19 shots/game at above average efficiency. He's going to break down guys one-on-one when it calls for it, but he was a very versatile scorer that gives me just a few more ways to put points on the board.

No, he can't hit a 3, but he's not like a Baron Davis level chucker. He shot 150+ 3 times and had a combined % of like .32. Besides, I'm probably gonna have 2 or 3 good 3 point shooters on the floor at all times. No, he's not a great defender but he didn't kill the Pistons with his defense, and considering I have one of the best defensive centers in the game, I doubt it's really gonna matter too much.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:23 PM   #5989
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post

So why does Aguirre have a offensive rating worse than his defensive, while Kiki's is 3 points higher? I think that's pretty telling considering played for worse teams than Aguirre.
Aguirre's WSAA is also negative for his career ftw.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:27 PM   #5990
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
1. Kiki benefitted a lot from playing on those Nuggets teams
Kiki's ORtg (based on per 100 possessions so pace shouldn't effect it) is #5 all-time amongst the likes of Stockton, Magic, Reggie, Moncrief, Barkley.

Quote:
3. MEb "lol, my pick was so awesome, he's better than Mullin.
Read rest of thread imo.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:29 PM   #5991
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Someone said Mullin and someone else were clearly better than Kiki, you then responded with an obnoxious response about how you would love to see the evidence behind that.

Now its all just hyperbole and exaggeration though and we are idiots. Riiiiight.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:31 PM   #5992
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Someone said Mullin and someone else were clearly better than Kiki, you then responded with an obnoxious response about how you would love to see the evidence behind that.

Now its all just hyperbole and exaggeration though and we are idiots. Riiiiight.
Why are you trying to start an argument where there isn't one? What is hard to understand about that? I love that you are attacking someone who is agreeing with you...... Am I wrong for trying to get people to actually put something behind their arguments, instead of just stating X>Y even if it is true? Also it was about the fact that they made it out that Mullin>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kiki, not that Mullin>Kiki.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:32 PM   #5993
Franchise 60
deliciously angry
 
Franchise 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ferocious, isn't he?
Posts: 42,744
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

1. Not attacking at all, I've backed up your pick,

2. You were being abrasive about it earlier, not anyone else.
Franchise 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:36 PM   #5994
Seadood228
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Seadood228's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rossmoor, CA
Posts: 30,306
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Kiki benefitted from playing in those offenses just as Aguirre did with Dallas. He was the 3-4 option on those Detroit teams, and was their second guy off the bench for much of this. Even so, his offensive efficiency dropped considerably, especially his PER.

I think saying he was a key guy on those Pistons teams is overrestimating his function with that team.
Seadood228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:36 PM   #5995
flyingmoose
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,224
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Whenever I check this thread I feel like Steve Carrell's character from Anchorman, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT."

Incidentally, every time I've made a pick I've felt like Ron Burgundy when he jumps into the bear pit, "I IMMEDIATELY regret this decision"
flyingmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:40 PM   #5996
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I just think its funny that you're up in arms about the fact that I was purposely abrasive in order to generate discussion about my pick. But we can hug and talk about Detlef if you want?
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:42 PM   #5997
KLJ
20k hands/day
 
KLJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Topeka
Posts: 5,701
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadood228 View Post
Kiki benefitted from playing in those offenses just as Aguirre did with Dallas. He was the 3-4 option on those Detroit teams, and was their second guy off the bench for much of this. Even so, his offensive efficiency dropped considerably, especially his PER.

I think saying he was a key guy on those Pistons teams is overrestimating his function with that team.
i posted this earlier:

more regarding pace:
Kiki's teams during his first 8 years (prime): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st (all with DEN), 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd (all with POR)
Aguirre's teams during his first 7.5 years (prime): 21st, 14th, 18th, 23rd, 12th, 14th, 20th, 24th (all with DAL)

this equated to 10-15 more possessions/game

kiki's team situation in DEN/POR was significantly different than Aguirre's team situation in DAL
KLJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:45 PM   #5998
MEb
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MEb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 24,705
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
i posted this earlier:

more regarding pace:
Kiki's teams during his first 8 years (prime): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st (all with DEN), 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd (all with POR)
Aguirre's teams during his first 7.5 years (prime): 21st, 14th, 18th, 23rd, 12th, 14th, 20th, 24th (all with DAL)

this equated to 10-15 more possessions/game

kiki's team situation in DEN/POR was significantly different than Aguirre's team situation in DAL
Yes, but Kiki was way more efficient and had the 5th best ORtg of th era, which shouldn't be effected by pace, so the argument that Kiki is only better due to pace doesn't hold water.
MEb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:47 PM   #5999
capone0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
capone0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 43,034
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I like the Artest pick he's currently my favorite player in the NBA (Kings fan) and this makes a team I like. Don't know how they'll win. Artest is great defensively but he's bat @#$# crazy and pretty inefficient offensively.
capone0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2008, 10:47 PM   #6000
BJLTNYK
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BJLTNYK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 14,406
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Holy God Reggie, Rodman, Artest. That is a badass team, but also liable to have anyone/everyone on their team ejected on a given night.
BJLTNYK is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive