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Old 05-21-2008, 12:08 AM   #5576
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
but he was coming off the bench (for whatever reason) the first 5 years and injured the last 5 years. his prime was that year and that's what we're going to get
His per was not rediculous. He played against 2nd teamers part of the time and his minutes in comparison to a lot of starters is not that much different.

OMG he came off the bench but he played 28-33 minutes per game. His per 36 mpg is not that much better than a lot of players picked before him. He's good but you point out some points that really don't help your point as much as you think it does.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:09 AM   #5577
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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lol so u think Barkley was a better defender than McHale, or even close to McHale in defense? How did McHale make the all nba defensive team 3 times, and the all nba defensive 2nd team 3 times, and Barkley is always regarded as a below average/poor defender?

Also it is common knowledge that McHale is one of those 2nd banana superstars who would be fine being the #1 option.

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.c...he_lottery.php

"Bird was the leading scorer on his Celts teams, but the #1 option was to pound it into the post to Parrish and McHale. You work it from high-percentage to low-percentage; as great as Bird was, he never shot 57% from the field. "

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58734

"however, maybe if he were forced into it by being "the man," McHale would have learned how to be an effective #1 option and creator for others. so that's another reason you go with him over Dirk. consider how Dirk, post-Nash, developed point forward abilities. perhaps McHale would too."

Yes these are quotes from message boards, but they clearly show that people share the same ideas I do (plus there aren't many articles out there on McHale as he played in the 80's).
Actually after reading those posts, you're absolutely right. In fact that's the most right someone has ever been. Kudos to you for your use of logic and the thought that you put into your debates.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:11 AM   #5578
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm genuinely excited to see who Bobbo takes with Shaq. I can't think of anyone in particular that he'd go for, other than the guy I think should have gone 20 picks ago.
i can think of one guy (who i assume you're talk about) but i dont think hes a good fit for shaq
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:11 AM   #5579
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
McHale has a career TS% of .605 (with a lack of a long peak too), with years of .617, .623, .655, .656, .623

Ship the freakin surest 2 points in bball pls
Jesus why won't you shut the **** up about McHale already!? You come off like such a tool, calling anyone who makes a pick you don't like a homer while trying to get McHales dick so far down your throat that you can felate his balls. Some of the points you make are also just sooooo ****ing LOL, like if you discount his last 2 years and rookie season his stats improve. HMMMMM, well if we can take away Barkley's three worst seasons that will probably improve his career as well won't it? Oh and poor McHale's rebounding numbers suffered because he played with great rebounders... but meanwhile let's not take into account the fact the fact that he played on a stacked team with tons of scoring options, giving him more oppurtunities in the low post and in one on one situations. Do you really think that putting the rest of the Celtics roster on Philly wouldn't have made Charles an even more efficient scorer? You just ignore facts/stats/common ****ing sense that doesnt support your arguments and then act like your a ****ing genius who more in the know than anyone else here. The fact is, McHale is good and underrated on the whole. Amongst people who know basketball well, which is many of the people in this thread, he gets the props he deserves. He is not a clear choice over people you say he is... Get off your own nuts and talk about something other than how smart you are for extrapolating KM's numbers and reading about how underrated he is despite never seeing him play. By this logic, Oscar Robertson would hands down be a better played played than MJ and anyone thinking otherwise would be a ******. But that isn't the case, so try talking about something else.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:12 AM   #5580
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Actually after reading those posts, you're absolutely right. In fact that's the most right someone has ever been. Kudos to you for your use of logic and thought into your debates.
Yeah, then again u are the genius who thinks a top 50 nba player of all time, who was known for being able to create his shot ridiculously well in the post, who has the best post moves of all time, who has been called by many as the "surest two points in basketball" could not be a #1 option on a team, ZERO chance LOL seriously WTF?

Then you go on and imply that Barkley was just as good (or nearly as good) on defense as McHale. That really was the icing on the cake.

And you are the one who thinks ur right LOL.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:14 AM   #5581
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Jesus why won't you shut the **** up about McHale already!? You come off like such a tool, calling anyone who makes a pick you don't like a homer while trying to get McHales dick so far down your throat that you can felate his balls. Some of the points you make are also just sooooo ****ing LOL, like if you discount his last 2 years and rookie season his stats improve. HMMMMM, well if we can take away Barkley's three worst seasons that will probably improve his career as well won't it? Oh and poor McHale's rebounding numbers suffered because he played with great rebounders... but meanwhile let's not take into account the fact the fact that he played on a stacked team with tons of scoring options, giving him more oppurtunities in the low post and in one on one situations. Do you really think that putting the rest of the Celtics roster on Philly wouldn't have made Charles an even more efficient scorer? You just ignore facts/stats/common ****ing sense that doesnt support your arguments and then act like your a ****ing genius who more in the know than anyone else here. The fact is, McHale is good and underrated on the whole. Amongst people who know basketball well, which is many of the people in this thread, he gets the props he deserves. He is not a clear choice over people you say he is... Get off your own nuts and talk about something other than how smart you are for extrapolating KM's numbers and reading about how underrated he is despite never seeing him play. By this logic, Oscar Robertson would hands down be a better played played than MJ and anyone thinking otherwise would be a ******. But that isn't the case, so try talking about something else.
wow if this isn't violating the FAQ I don't know what is. (Note I haven't read the FAQ but there has to be some sort of violation lol).
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:14 AM   #5582
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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His per was not rediculous. He played against 2nd teamers part of the time and his minutes in comparison to a lot of starters is not that much different.
I don't like this analysis. Hollinger and other stat heads have given ample evidence that guys generally perform better when they're starters. The "vs second teamers" effect is overblown.

Manu is a good case. His #s rise when he's a starter.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:16 AM   #5583
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I don't like this analysis. Hollinger and other stat heads have given ample evidence that guys generally perform better when they're starters. The "vs second teamers" effect is overblown.

Manu is a good case. His #s rise when he's a starter.
Ya and when McHale became a starter his numbers went up even higher as well.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:16 AM   #5584
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yeah, then again u are the genius who thinks a top 50 nba player of all time, who was known for being able to create his shot ridiculously well in the post, who has the best post moves of all time, who has been called by many as the "surest two points in basketball" could not be a #1 option on a team, ZERO chance LOL seriously WTF?

Then you go on and imply that Barkley was just as good (or nearly as good) on defense as McHale. That really was the icing on the cake.

And you are the one who thinks ur right LOL.
Reading comprehension... please go back and read my post. Hint: I didn't say either of those things.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:18 AM   #5585
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Jesus why won't you shut the **** up about McHale already!? You come off like such a tool, calling anyone who makes a pick you don't like a homer while trying to get McHales dick so far down your throat that you can felate his balls. Some of the points you make are also just sooooo ****ing LOL, like if you discount his last 2 years and rookie season his stats improve. HMMMMM, well if we can take away Barkley's three worst seasons that will probably improve his career as well won't it? Oh and poor McHale's rebounding numbers suffered because he played with great rebounders... but meanwhile let's not take into account the fact the fact that he played on a stacked team with tons of scoring options, giving him more oppurtunities in the low post and in one on one situations. Do you really think that putting the rest of the Celtics roster on Philly wouldn't have made Charles an even more efficient scorer? You just ignore facts/stats/common ****ing sense that doesnt support your arguments and then act like your a ****ing genius who more in the know than anyone else here. The fact is, McHale is good and underrated on the whole. Amongst people who know basketball well, which is many of the people in this thread, he gets the props he deserves. He is not a clear choice over people you say he is... Get off your own nuts and talk about something other than how smart you are for extrapolating KM's numbers and reading about how underrated he is despite never seeing him play. By this logic, Oscar Robertson would hands down be a better played played than MJ and anyone thinking otherwise would be a ******. But that isn't the case, so try talking about something else.

But why don't you tell him how you really feel?
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:18 AM   #5586
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Barkley's defensive rating is better than McHales. He had more defensive win shares, and played on more up tempo teams.
You implied his defense was nearly as good, if not better.

I misread the part about the #1 option, and I do agree he wouldn't be as efficent if he didn't have as great teammates around him.

I will be putting great guys around him though, (maybe not as great as the Celtics teams but it will be close).
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:19 AM   #5587
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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But why don't you tell him how you really feel?
I laughed
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:19 AM   #5588
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ya when they still didn't have the 5 second rule, once they added it Barkley fell off drastically. (And the 5 second rule will be in this league too).
McHale played with the 5 second rule? I know Barkley's butt is of legendary proportions, but McHale did his share of backing in players too. (Dantley was a master of this).
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:20 AM   #5589
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

see guys this is why we need a 4 hour time limit for picks, anything over that and ePeen starts with the McHale business

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Old 05-21-2008, 12:21 AM   #5590
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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McHale played with the 5 second rule? I know Barkley's butt is of legendary proportions, but McHale did his share of backing in players too. (Dantley was a master of this).
I read somewhere McHale a few days ago that McHale was known for going very quick making his move in the post before double teams could get to him.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:21 AM   #5591
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'll ask again: is this rule still in effect? I never knew about it and have never once seen it called. I vaguely recall it from rec league stuff but that's just cuz 12 year olds are ******ed.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:21 AM   #5592
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You implied his defense was nearly as good, if not better.
No I didn't. I used an example to illustrate why KM was overrated and Barkley was underrated defensively. mmmkay?
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:21 AM   #5593
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You implied his defense was nearly as good, if not better.

I misread the part about the #1 option, and I do agree he wouldn't be as efficent if he didn't have as great teammates around him.

I will be putting great guys around him though, (maybe not as great as the Celtics teams but it will be close).

I doubt you will give him a teammate that is close to Larry Legend.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:22 AM   #5594
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'll ask again: is this rule still in effect? I never knew about it and have never once seen it called. I vaguely recall it from rec league stuff but that's just cuz 12 year olds are ******ed.
yes
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:23 AM   #5595
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No I didn't. I used an example to illustrate why KM was overrated and Barkley was underrated defensively. mmmkay?
Yes while ignoring the fact that KM guarded the best 3/4/5 player the vast majority of the time and Barkley was most likley put on the weakest offensive pf/c.

McHale had to guard a bunch of SF's which obv caused his drtg to go way up since he is obv a much better defender in the post than guarding a SF, and players who guard SF's have higher drtg's as well.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:23 AM   #5596
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

has anyone ever witnessed it? If I had to guess I watched somewhere between 150-200 NBA games this year and never saw it.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:24 AM   #5597
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I doubt you will give him a teammate that is close to Larry Legend.
I obv won't, but I will give him a bunch of great shooters (which will be more depth wise than the Celtics had, altho obv the Celtics had a ton of depth).
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:28 AM   #5598
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yes while ignoring the fact that KM guarded the best 3/4/5 player the vast majority of the time and Barkley was most likley put on the weakest offensive pf/c.

McHale had to guard a bunch of SF's which obv caused his drtg to go way up since he is obv a much better defender in the post than guarding a SF, and players who guard SF's have higher drtg's as well.
This is completely false dude. Bird checked 3s, DJ (not eligible for draft) checked 1-2s, Parish(also not eligible) and Mchale split post guys. For the most part McHale was a help defender.

I'm seriously doubting that you've seen that team play 10 games now... seriously.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:28 AM   #5599
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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has anyone ever witnessed it? If I had to guess I watched somewhere between 150-200 NBA games this year and never saw it.
yeah it gets called every once in a while. i've seen it only once or twice in the playoffs, and the announcers always attribute it to something else (like 3 seconds or some other violation).

next time somebody is posting up for more than a second or two, you'll see the ref "counting" seconds by bending his arm at the elbow, and then fully extending it. this probably only makes sense if you've ever played organized basketball, its how they count time in the backcourt, or the 5 second guarded possession rule (not a rule in the NBA)

the reason you never see the rule is because any player good enough to actually use 5 seconds in the post is good enough to get doubled before 5 seconds is up.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:28 AM   #5600
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Round #2/ Pick 79: Eddie Jones




Eddie Jones is the BPA (Best Player Available) as WELL as the best pairing with Shaq. WOW, a double whammy. I'm going to list Eddie's accomplishments; follow it up with his stats; than detail my team plans.

Team BobboFitos:
PG -
SG - Eddie Jones
SF -
PF -
C - Shaquille O'Neal

Eddie Jones is a 14 year active veteran, standing 6'6 and weighing ~190. A member of 3 All-Star teams (1997 - 25 yrs old, 1998 - 26 yrs old, 2000 - 28 yrs old). A member of 3 All-Defensive teams (1997-98, 1998-99, 1999-00) and 1 All-NBA team (1990-00).

Eddie Jones cames into the NBA at the age of 23 where he put up a PER of 16.3. Not too shabby, except we don't count that. Want continued excellence? His following seasons...
17.0, 17.3, 18.0, 18.5, 19.9, 18.8, 17.5, 18.9, 16.7. His career PER, which includes his decline, is 16.7.

Eddie Jones has a clean bill of health, as well - from the age of 24 to 34, he missed a combined 54 games (Or fewer than 6 games/year).

Eddie has a career ORtg of 111 and DRtg of 103, peaking at an astounding 97 2000-2001. He's had 8 (!) seasons of double digit offensive win shares, and 6 (!) seasons of double digit defensive win shares. Career +92.0 WSAA.

For more conventional stat users, Eddie boasts a career per 36 min mark of 15.5 PPG, 4.2 RPG, and 3.1 APG. (Only 1.7 TOPG and 1.8 SPG - he creates more TOs then he himself commits, which is a HUGE plus) His best season, @28 yrs old, saw him put up 20.1/4.8/4.2.

Eddie is a terrific shooter, to boot - career 37.3% 3pt shooter and 80.9% FT shooter, has a career 55.4% TS mark. Interestingly, he's 2nd among active players in 3-pt Field Goals made. (Behind Ray Allen, obviously)

Alright, lets move into how he fits in with Shaq. First, I haven't even decided the direction of my team - with a young Shaq and high-flying Eddie, I could go small since both players run the floor very well - I could go big, since Eddie can play the 2 or 3 (and guard both) with ease. I can slow it down, grind it out, since both have played in systems (ie. the Heat) that featured a half court offense. Shaq thrives with shooters around him, and luckily I have one of the best on my team!

Further, people have argued, "what wins ballgames, defense or offense?". I say - "both". Superior balance. With Shaq (best offensive big man force in the game ever, and one of the best defensive bigs as well) I have coupled Eddie, who is a superior 2nd option and incredibly valuable perimeter defender. So, I am going to try to have the best offensive AND defensive efficiency.

It's worth noting as well, Eddie is one of the most low-profile, hard-working types, which for my team is important, since I want Shaq to know he's the man. (And not have to ever worry he's not) Eddie will accept his role as the 2nd option gladly and play with his heart. Eddie will likely take my technical foul shots over Shaq ATM, too

Steroid Boy, you sir are on the clock.
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