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Old 05-20-2008, 10:08 PM   #5501
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
those are some sick shoes, any idea where I can get them? I just tried ebay with no luck
just call nike - i'm pretty sure they still have like 9 million cases of them.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:09 PM   #5502
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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he had a 1.5 year peak. wtf. why cant i find a bunch of dudes with similar very short awesome peaks and say, well, mebbe they woulda continued it bc of abc?
Victor,

Does you ignoring the major point of my post mean you take back what you said?

I've noticed something that happens here. You disagree with a poster over something and you're very certain that you're right, and for it impacts your view of that poster even on other issues. I'm certainly not immune to it. For example, take a look at me and EPip. Before the McHale debate I remember agreeing a lot with him. A few times he even wrote "Yea, you just wrote basically what I wrote(I hadn't caught up in the thread when I posted)." However after our disagreement on McHale, it seems like we agree a lot less on other things.

Similarly, I'm almost expecting to disagree with HSP's next pick due to Marbury.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because I think you're doing this with me here....You saw me react harshly regarding the debate over Hardaway's peak. And now you automatically assumed that I was wrong about the injury prone issue. In reality, as you can see by my recap of my posts above, I've been very fair about the injury issue and have never given any of my thoughts on the exact chances that he is able to play any number of years(which makes it completely ridiculous that you'd say I'm overestimating his chances, as I'M NOT EVEN ESTIMATING THEM!!!). If you'd like me to give my honest estimations of his chances of various injury scenarios, then I'll go ahead and do it, but I havn't done that yet so you can't critisize me there.



Anyway, back to the issue of his peak....

"he had a 1.5 year peak. wtf."

In 3 consecutive years he was All NBA 1st Team, All NBA 1st Team, and All NBA 3rd Team. Yes the one year in the middle of those 3 was his best year. However, I don't see how you only count this as a 1.5 year peak. Please explain.


"why cant i find a bunch of dudes with similar very short awesome peaks and say, well, mebbe they woulda continued it bc of abc?"

You can't find them because they don't exist or have been drafted already. Obviously you can't list undrafted players here, but I've repeatedly challenged you to list 20 players out of the 74 drafted who have put up a season as good as his at 24 years of age or younger and you've never done it. And if you really want to include undrafted players in your list then list all of the drafted players and PM me the few undrafted players in which you think have put up a better year than his at such a young age.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:13 PM   #5503
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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just call nike - i'm pretty sure they still have like 9 million cases of them.
Ok anyone know what the shoe is called? There are multiple versions of Penny shoes, heck there are 3 listed here and none of them are the same as the one in the pic.

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...=32%26fsoo%3D2
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:14 PM   #5504
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i'm going to post this again (and it's already been said by other people)

microfracture surgery is done for people who have cartilage deficiency. this happens for some people who undergo a traumatic injury, and some people who just have ****ed up knees (structure, use, etc). the first is debatable, it could be a freak injury. the second is of the timebomb variety.

penny falls in the second group. he had ****ed up knees (which the team thought was severe tendonitis at first). when he had arthroscopic surgery early in the '96 season, they realized that his cartilage was so ****ed up that he needed microfracture.

that said, he was very good when healthy
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:21 PM   #5505
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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assani,

when i said he wasn't as good as i remembered him, yes, i did think he was the next magic when i was a kid. then i looked at the stats and realized he wasn't anywhere close. MVP type age 24 season putting up 21.3/6.9/5.4 with a 24 PER. good if not great season but OMG good? i don't think so. every year there are a couple people with 24 PER MVP type seasons. comparing him to grant hill is bad imo because grant hill was even more amazing than that for a 5 year stretch.

grant hill's age 24 year he was 21.4/9/7.3 and that is in the middle of a sustained (albiet short) high-end peak.
I cut out the rest of your post because I wanted to focus on this for now.....


If you thought he was as good as Magic Johnson and that is why "he wasn't as good as I remembered" then ok thats fine...I certainly won't disagree that he wasn't as good as Magic.

However, you looking at his bulk numbers and PER only is a bad way to evaluate basketball imo. I do think you should take those numbers into account for sure, but efficiency numbers and defensive numbers and ability are just as important imo. When you list Hill's numbers, again you just look at the 3 main bulk stats(points, rebounds, assists). I think this is a pretty poor way to evaluate a player.

I'm actually glad Marbury was drafted already now because it lets me use him as an example: Marbury put up 23.9/8.4/3.2 Do you think hes better than Hardaway too?

In the Grant Hill's age 23-25 seasons(Penny's prime before getting hurt) his TS% was 53.7, 55.6, and 52.0. Fairly average efficiency. What makes Hardaway so amazing is his incredible efficiency. Very few player put up 60+% TS% while scoring a decent bulk number. Even few PGs do it. And even fewer do it while playing good defense too.

I would take Hardaway's age 24 season over Hill's, mainly due to the efficiency issue, although I admit that its very very close. Actually the more I think about it, maybe I could go with Hill. I'm pretty undecided to be honest. Both were phenomenal players.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:24 PM   #5506
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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and kc is right about penny's conditioning. he has a lanky and frail frame that can't take a lot of abuse.

i'm not saying penny was never a great player, but he wasn't great for very long and his greatness wasn't magic omg good.
I agree with KC's point. However, at this point in the draft I think its was worth it. Imo a guy like Yao has the same issues with body frame and he went much earlier. There are some slightly built guys like AI who have held up despite taking a beat(although he isn't lanky, so maybe not a perfect example). Overall I definitely agree though...hes an injury risk for sure.


Comparing him to Magic is pretty unfair. Thats like saying Kobe wasn't MJ good...I mean yea its true, but its not really a slight to Kobe.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:26 PM   #5507
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

? yao is by no means lanky. he's injury prone because people are just not supposed to be that large
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:28 PM   #5508
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
i'm going to post this again (and it's already been said by other people)

microfracture surgery is done for people who have cartilage deficiency. this happens for some people who undergo a traumatic injury, and some people who just have ****ed up knees (structure, use, etc). the first is debatable, it could be a freak injury. the second is of the timebomb variety.

penny falls in the second group. he had ****ed up knees (which the team thought was severe tendonitis at first). when he had arthroscopic surgery early in the '96 season, they realized that his cartilage was so ****ed up that he needed microfracture.

that said, he was very good when healthy
So its pretty much a 99% chance that he'd need microfracture at some point in his career in our league then, right? I guess the main question then is advances in the surgery, not coming back too soon from injuries, and random luck.

Also yet another point for him MAYBE HAVING A CHANCE to be less injury prone in our league: You said that it took the Magic doctors until 1996 to realize this about him and that they had initially misdiagnosed it as tendonitis. I will have this knowledge from the beginning. Small point, but a point nonetheless imo.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:29 PM   #5509
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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? yao is by no means lanky. he's injury prone because people are just not supposed to be that large
Especially when they're Asian.

Last edited by BJLTNYK; 05-20-2008 at 10:29 PM. Reason: RACIST BAN
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:29 PM   #5510
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
i'm going to post this again (and it's already been said by other people)

microfracture surgery is done for people who have cartilage deficiency. this happens for some people who undergo a traumatic injury, and some people who just have ****ed up knees (structure, use, etc). the first is debatable, it could be a freak injury. the second is of the timebomb variety.

penny falls in the second group. he had ****ed up knees (which the team thought was severe tendonitis at first). when he had arthroscopic surgery early in the '96 season, they realized that his cartilage was so ****ed up that he needed microfracture.

that said, he was very good when healthy
well that kinda sucks.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:31 PM   #5511
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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? yao is by no means lanky. he's injury prone because people are just not supposed to be that large
Maybe lanky was the wrong word to use, but hes certainly not bulky....

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Old 05-20-2008, 10:33 PM   #5512
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm possibly interested in moving up a couple spots, although I'm not sure what would be a fair trade off. But just in case any of the 4 people in front of me right now have any ideas.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:33 PM   #5513
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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So its pretty much a 99% chance that he'd need microfracture at some point in his career in our league then, right? I guess the main question then is advances in the surgery, not coming back too soon from injuries, and random luck.

Also yet another point for him MAYBE HAVING A CHANCE to be less injury prone in our league: You said that it took the Magic doctors until 1996 to realize this about him and that they had initially misdiagnosed it as tendonitis. I will have this knowledge from the beginning. Small point, but a point nonetheless imo.
u dont get it. his knee was poorly designed. his body type was not supported by his knee. this caused his cartilage to wear away. MICROFRACTURE DOES NOT FIX THIS. his cartilage will wear away again and again.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:36 PM   #5514
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Victor,

Does you ignoring the major point of my post mean you take back what you said?

I've noticed something that happens here. You disagree with a poster over something and you're very certain that you're right, and for it impacts your view of that poster even on other issues. I'm certainly not immune to it. For example, take a look at me and EPip. Before the McHale debate I remember agreeing a lot with him. A few times he even wrote "Yea, you just wrote basically what I wrote(I hadn't caught up in the thread when I posted)." However after our disagreement on McHale, it seems like we agree a lot less on other things.

Similarly, I'm almost expecting to disagree with HSP's next pick due to Marbury.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because I think you're doing this with me here....You saw me react harshly regarding the debate over Hardaway's peak. And now you automatically assumed that I was wrong about the injury prone issue. In reality, as you can see by my recap of my posts above, I've been very fair about the injury issue and have never given any of my thoughts on the exact chances that he is able to play any number of years(which makes it completely ridiculous that you'd say I'm overestimating his chances, as I'M NOT EVEN ESTIMATING THEM!!!). If you'd like me to give my honest estimations of his chances of various injury scenarios, then I'll go ahead and do it, but I havn't done that yet so you can't critisize me there.



Anyway, back to the issue of his peak....

"he had a 1.5 year peak. wtf."

In 3 consecutive years he was All NBA 1st Team, All NBA 1st Team, and All NBA 3rd Team. Yes the one year in the middle of those 3 was his best year. However, I don't see how you only count this as a 1.5 year peak. Please explain.


"why cant i find a bunch of dudes with similar very short awesome peaks and say, well, mebbe they woulda continued it bc of abc?"

You can't find them because they don't exist or have been drafted already. Obviously you can't list undrafted players here, but I've repeatedly challenged you to list 20 players out of the 74 drafted who have put up a season as good as his at 24 years of age or younger and you've never done it. And if you really want to include undrafted players in your list then list all of the drafted players and PM me the few undrafted players in which you think have put up a better year than his at such a young age.
Hate to bump a post that I just made 10 minutes ago, but I've seen you respond to two other posts made after mine, so I take it that you either missed this or are ignoring it....
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:37 PM   #5515
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You can't find them because they don't exist or have been drafted already. Obviously you can't list undrafted players here, but I've repeatedly challenged you to list 20 players out of the 74 drafted who have put up a season as good as his at 24 years of age or younger and you've never done it. And if you really want to include undrafted players in your list then list all of the drafted players and PM me the few undrafted players in which you think have put up a better year than his at such a young age.
assani, it doesnt really matter bc u will reject all the fringe players i throw on this list. in your opinion, pennys skill transcends his stats.

my problem is that its unfair to the guy who put up 22/10/x and then was mediocre the rest of his career for whatever reason. i could find a bunch of those guys and have discussed a few with others. in this draft format, that guy would be much more valuable if he had blown his knee out playing pickup ball or got in a car accident. i dont like that. thats all.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:38 PM   #5516
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Hate to bump a post that I just made 10 minutes ago, but I've seen you respond to two other posts made after mine, so I take it that you either missed this or are ignoring it....
ya dude, im completely ignoring it bc ur just too damn smart for me. how could i ever compete with the greaat assani.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:39 PM   #5517
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u dont get it. his knee was poorly designed. his body type was not supported by his knee. this caused his cartilage to wear away. MICROFRACTURE DOES NOT FIX THIS. his cartilage will wear away again and again.
Hate to bump a post that I just made 10 minutes ago, but I've seen you respond to two other posts made after mine, so I take it that you either missed this or are ignoring it....
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:41 PM   #5518
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u dont get it. his knee was poorly designed. his body type was not supported by his knee. this caused his cartilage to wear away. MICROFRACTURE DOES NOT FIX THIS. his cartilage will wear away again and again.
I'm not a doctor, so I'm going to admit that I have no idea here.

You don't seem to be willing to do that. Admit it: You have absolutely no clue if Penny's knee conditions could've been fixed if they were known about 2 years prior to when they discovered them(Hell you didn't even know about his knees until KLJ brought it up). Moreover even if they can't be fixed, you have no clue how long it will take his cartilage to wear away again if the microfracture surgery is successful. He made it until age 26 on his initial cartilage and I'm assuming he played a ton of basketball ever since he was a kid. If the microfracture surgery of today can completely heal him(a big "if" I know) then maybe he can make it 5 or 10 more years before his cartilage wears down again.

Or maybe not. I don't know. But you don't know either. One of us is acting as if they do know though.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:45 PM   #5519
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Hate to bump a post that I just made 10 minutes ago, but I've seen you respond to two other posts made after mine, so I take it that you either missed this or are ignoring it....
Stop being immature. No I did not respond to one single thing that was posted after you posted that before I responded to you. When I read your post, THE VERY FIRST THING I DID WAS TO RESPOND TO IT. But because I said something to you, you have to say it back to me? Seriously are you 10 years old or something?

Dude, I enjoy debating with you. I value this discussion, as it increases my basketball knowledge and I'm enjoying it. I thank you for taking the time to debate with me. So why are you acting like an ******* here? Why do stuff like that or why claim that I'm overestimating the chances that Hardaway can play without injury in our league when(as I proved by quoting four of my posts) I never even estimated the chances but instead always said "I really have no clue"?

Stuff like this makes me want to just put you on ignore, which is unfortunate because I'm enjoying our discussion.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:48 PM   #5520
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assani, it doesnt really matter bc u will reject all the fringe players i throw on this list. in your opinion, pennys skill transcends his stats.

my problem is that its unfair to the guy who put up 22/10/x and then was mediocre the rest of his career for whatever reason. i could find a bunch of those guys and have discussed a few with others. in this draft format, that guy would be much more valuable if he had blown his knee out playing pickup ball or got in a car accident. i dont like that. thats all.
No I won't. Take a look at my post above about Grant Hill. I went back and forth on who was better, and at the end of my post I admitted that I am very undecided. I am very willing to admit I'm wrong. Its very possible that you'll list 20 players and I'll end up saying "You're right there are 20...let me amend my statement to 25...Penny is a top 25 player when healthy."

I'm not hardheaded at all. I think I have proven time and time again that I'm willing to change my opinions, and I've already done it several times in this draft.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:50 PM   #5521
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I'm not a doctor, so I'm going to admit that I have no idea here.

You don't seem to be willing to do that. Admit it: You have absolutely no clue if Penny's knee conditions could've been fixed if they were known about 2 years prior to when they discovered them(Hell you didn't even know about his knees until KLJ brought it up). Moreover even if they can't be fixed, you have no clue how long it will take his cartilage to wear away again if the microfracture surgery is successful. He made it until age 26 on his initial cartilage and I'm assuming he played a ton of basketball ever since he was a kid. If the microfracture surgery of today can completely heal him(a big "if" I know) then maybe he can make it 5 or 10 more years before his cartilage wears down again.

Or maybe not. I don't know. But you don't know either. One of us is acting as if they do know though.
i tore my knee up almost 2 years ago and still have pain and cant play sports, so i have been painstakingly researching microfracture and other solutions.

its not considered a fix for poor knee construction that causes cartilage deterioration. it is good for otherwise healthy knees that sustained a traumatic injury and have good construction, joint spacing, etc.

ive done hours of research on this. im not a doctor. ive talked to a few doctors.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:51 PM   #5522
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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those are some sick shoes, any idea where I can get them? I just tried ebay with no luck
Those are Air Penny 2s, they were released in mid 90s. They have never been re-released or retroed by Nike. Making them pretty rare, especially deadstock condition.

You can just sweat ebay a pair might turn up or try niketalk.com buy/sell forum.

Price is going to be steep since they were never sold after initial run, expect to pay over $300 for a deadstock pair, maybe as much as $500++.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:53 PM   #5523
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stop being immature. No I did not respond to one single thing that was posted after you posted that before I responded to you. When I read your post, THE VERY FIRST THING I DID WAS TO RESPOND TO IT. But because I said something to you, you have to say it back to me? Seriously are you 10 years old or something?

Dude, I enjoy debating with you. I value this discussion, as it increases my basketball knowledge and I'm enjoying it. I thank you for taking the time to debate with me. So why are you acting like an ******* here? Why do stuff like that or why claim that I'm overestimating the chances that Hardaway can play without injury in our league when(as I proved by quoting four of my posts) I never even estimated the chances but instead always said "I really have no clue"?

Stuff like this makes me want to just put you on ignore, which is unfortunate because I'm enjoying our discussion.
my post was pretty immature, but so was yours. i mean, did u really think i would just ignore u? have i ever done that? have i ever backed down from an internet fight? cmon man, this is all i do. so, like in a multiple choice test, i like to tackle the easy ones first.

your post required a bit of thought and typing so i figured i hit it last.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:53 PM   #5524
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Those are Air Penny 2s, they were released in mid 90s. They have never been re-released or retroed by Nike. Making them pretty rare, especially deadstock condition.

You can just sweat ebay a pair might turn up or try niketalk.com buy/sell forum.

Price is going to be steep since they were never sold after initial run, expect to pay over $300 for a deadstock pair, maybe as much as $500++.
ty, if anyone else has any other info please add it.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:56 PM   #5525
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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my post was pretty immature, but so was yours. i mean, did u really think i would just ignore u? have i ever done that? have i ever backed down from an internet fight? cmon man, this is all i do. so, like in a multiple choice test, i like to tackle the easy ones first.

your post required a bit of thought and typing so i figured i hit it last.
lol gold
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