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Old 05-08-2008, 01:38 AM   #501
tarheeljks
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
So we are diminishing the value of Stockton/Malone because they played together, but CP3 gets super duper 100% value after 3 years?

Its just crazy to me that playing at a HOF level for 15 years is a negative, and being young and having 1 all time great season makes you more valuable.
who said it was a negative?

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I think that taking him over Malone, Barkley or Stockton, three easily top 50 all time players and all top 5 all time at their position, all of whom had not only tremendous peaks, but extraordinary longevity, is a stretch.
so this is a draft based on career, not based on potential? if it is then players w/<x years of experience should have been ineligible draft picks and if not all anyone can do is extrapolate for the young superstars.

edit: and the fact they are being drafted at age 24 is all the more reason to take paul over stockton
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:40 AM   #502
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Okay how about I just ask you guys who to pick, Malone or Howard, since we're discussing so much. I've narrowed it down to those two, if Lurchy picks someone else. I'm leaning toward Malone because he was such a domina t player in his prime, the second leading scorer of all time and the leading defensive rebounder, and I'm inclined to think he could have had similar success with as little as a fringe all-star caliber point guard. It's not like his forte was catch-and-shoot, he did the heavy lifting in the paint to get his points. He was also the best player in NBA history at getting away with cheap, demoralizing, brutally effective elbows at both ends of the floor.

The one concern I have about him is that I will need to build a certain type of team to maximize his strengths, players who excel in a half-court offense and strog passers who can find him inside. I feel like Dwight is a more versatile player in that he can excel in the half-court and a running offense because of his quickness and athleticism. Plus, he is only 22 and already the youngest player ever to lead the league in reboudning and average a double-double for an entire season. I'm not sure how relevant this is too our league, but he is currently hands down the best center in the East by a mile and will likely be dominating opposing teams for the next ten years. Truth be told I will be happy with either of these players, as they will both present different challenges as far as building the rest of my team.
CP3 over Malone is bad. DH over Malone is borderline ******ed.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:42 AM   #503
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I think that taking him over Malone, Barkley or Stockton, three easily top 50 all time players and all top 5 all time at their position, all of whom had not only tremendous peaks, but extraordinary longevity, is a stretch.
Barkley was actually the other guy was considering taking at the 11th btw...over Malone (because I could make the arguement that he did it all...and he created on his own unlike Malone)

I figure the whole concept of this draft is to draft a player on a brand new franchise at their prime...and I truly feel Paul was the better choice over Malone and Stock. You guys are saying we're discounting the longevity and HOF careers of these guys - but you guys on the other hand are discounting the greatness of Chris Paul and more importantly - how he hasnt had a chance to be in the league for 10-15 years.

Paul not having played for 10-15 years is hurting him, when imo - it shojuldnt.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:42 AM   #504
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by SHARK DOCTOR View Post
I wasnt tryin to diminsh Malone or Stockton...i was just tryin to make a point to flyingmoose that the whole point of this whole draft is to make a pick and have a sound argument backing it up. Thats all.
No offense meant. I thought you knew it was close and chose the guy you liked best (That's what I wrongly extrapolated from your comments anyway).
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:44 AM   #505
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Okay how about I just ask you guys who to pick, Malone or Howard, since we're discussing so much. I've narrowed it down to those two, if Lurchy picks someone else. I'm leaning toward Malone because he was such a domina t player in his prime, the second leading scorer of all time and the leading defensive rebounder, and I'm inclined to think he could have had similar success with as little as a fringe all-star caliber point guard. It's not like his forte was catch-and-shoot, he did the heavy lifting in the paint to get his points. He was also the best player in NBA history at getting away with cheap, demoralizing, brutally effective elbows at both ends of the floor.

The one concern I have about him is that I will need to build a certain type of team to maximize his strengths, players who excel in a half-court offense and strog passers who can find him inside. I feel like Dwight is a more versatile player in that he can excel in the half-court and a running offense because of his quickness and athleticism. Plus, he is only 22 and already the youngest player ever to lead the league in reboudning and average a double-double for an entire season. I'm not sure how relevant this is too our league, but he is currently hands down the best center in the East by a mile and will likely be dominating opposing teams for the next ten years. Truth be told I will be happy with either of these players, as they will both present different challenges as far as building the rest of my team.
I would definitely take Malone over Juwan Howard.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:44 AM   #506
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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who said it was a negative?
Its a negative in the sense that their ceiling has been reached. We have seen their career arc, and how good they are. They are hurt by their longevity because we can't say "well they could be the best ever!"

We already know what they are.

But whatever, CP3 is gangster. I'm just glad I didn't have to decide whether or not to pick him.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:45 AM   #507
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Barkley was actually the other guy was considering taking at the 11th btw...over Malone (because I could make the arguement that he did it all...and he created on his own unlike Malone)

I figure the whole concept of this draft is to draft a player on a brand new franchise at their prime...and I truly feel Paul was the better choice over Malone and Stock. You guys are saying we're discounting the longevity and HOF careers of these guys - but you guys on the other hand are discounting the greatness of Chris Paul and more importantly - how he hasnt had a chance to be in the league for 10-15 years.

Paul not having played for 10-15 years is hurting him, when imo - it shojuldnt.
Barkley
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:45 AM   #508
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I would definitely take Malone over Juwan Howard.
i actual LOL'ed - and I dont do that often.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:45 AM   #509
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I would definitely take Malone over Juwan Howard.
I think he means Josh Howard.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:45 AM   #510
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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CP3 over Malone is bad. DH over Malone is borderline ******ed.
QFT
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:47 AM   #511
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Franchise 60 View Post
Its a negative in the sense that their ceiling has been reached. We have seen their career arc, and how good they are. They are hurt by their longevity because we can't say "well they could be the best ever!"

We already know what they are.
ok - fine - but stop using the same logic against players who havnt played 10-15 years in the laegue.

Chris Pauls single season was greater than both Malone and Stcocks best single seasons....even if we werent talking about "potential" (but thats not what this is ultimately about)
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:48 AM   #512
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

If you're happy, I'm happy.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:49 AM   #513
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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How do we put a value on guys like CP3 in terms of when we vote on these teams and such? I mean is the argument that "he is going to be the greatest pg of all time!" valid?

Such a huge grey area.
That's the fun part about this thread, though. A few posts above, someone said that Dwight Howard over Karl Malone is insane. We won't actually know if that's true for 15-20 years. But is it really a stretch to think that a very young, incredibly athletic guy like Howard might have an HOF career also? It's the same argument I made before about LBJ being debatable over MJ. Of course, with the benefit of hindsight, you'd be crazy if you don't take the best player of all-time over a guy with a 25% chance of being the best player of all-time. But this thread is just for fun anyway.

Let's say we did this for baseball. With the benefit of hindsight, anyone who doesn't take Bonds first is a complete idiot. But could anyone have guessed how good Bonds would become in 1988?
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:52 AM   #514
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

IMO we shouldn't really be talking about this in case it effects what people might do. One thing leads to another and the next thing we're talking about even more players (I used restraint not to give an example here as an example of how easily this could turn out bad).
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:53 AM   #515
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Let's say we did this for baseball. With the benefit of hindsight, anyone who doesn't take Bonds first is a complete idiot. But could anyone have guessed how good Bonds would become in 1988?
This is very true imo
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:54 AM   #516
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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Let's say we did this for baseball. With the benefit of hindsight, anyone who doesn't take Bonds first is a complete idiot. But could anyone have guessed how good Bonds would become in 1988?
If it's a single elimination tournament deciding things, Pedro goes first AINEC.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:55 AM   #517
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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I would definitely take Malone over Juwan Howard.
Would have been funnier if I hadn't said Dwight in the second par.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:01 AM   #518
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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If it's a single elimination tournament deciding things, Pedro goes first AINEC.
yeah he's like the Rondo of baseball
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:12 AM   #519
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Paul probably has had a better PG season right now than anybody since Magic. Look at his numbers. Dude's been beast.

But you just don't know how his body is going to age. Some nagging injuries that plague him throughout his career. Really, the downside for a 22 year old PG who's already had a few injuries, and is only 6 foot? I mean, how much does he rely on his quickness? I really don't like this pick. Just too worried about his longevity. And consider, how much better than Karl Malone or John Stockton can you really be?
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:23 AM   #520
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

we are supposed to discount any fluke occurrences (such as a sudden proneness(sp?) to injury)
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:29 AM   #521
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I am back and quite hammered. Basically, I can't believe that SHARK DOCTOR took Chris Paul for several reasons.

1.) I tossed Paul out as an idea to myself, but figured that was 0% chance that he goes this high.

2.) I had a list of three guys, one of which I had zero desire to take because I dislike him. Of course, he's still on the board now.

3.) I told you I would be out for the night and lol @ people acting like I would forget Karl Malone.

I'll probably put my pick up tonight, but if not sometime early tomorrow afternoon.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:29 AM   #522
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

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A player who got injured in real life is not necessarily guaranteed to get injured in our hypothetical league. However, players who are/were injury prone in real life will also be injury prone in our hypothetical league and you should factor that into your drafting. A player who suffered a freak injury in real life is no more likely to suffer that freak injury in our league than any other player.
Being injury prone (having a bad back) != fluke occurrences.

Read the rules, IMO.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:30 AM   #523
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

I don't think you suddenly become prone to injury. Being prone to injury means you are likely to be injured. If you're talking about something like Grant Hill, I'd consider that a fluke injury because he was completely healthy until he injured his ankle mid-career, and then played on it when he should have been healing. Then of course he got the staph infection after surgery which was just bad luck.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:34 AM   #524
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

It's not that Chris Paul is injury prone. It's that we don't know how his body is going to act as it ages. We do know about it for guys like Malone or Stockton, they're going to play a bunch of years barring freak occurrences. For CP3, we just don't know yet.

That's the argument, anyway.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:37 AM   #525
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion Thread

Stockton missed 54 games in 19 seasons. Only 4 games in his first 13 seasons, and played in all 82 games in 16 of 19 seasons.

Paul has missed 24 games in his 3 seasons, and has yet to play 82 games in a single reg season.
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