Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-20-2008, 01:50 AM   #5026
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
At the risk of being laughed out of the thread again, I guess I'll give it a shot.

Starting at 24, JO had 4 straight seasons of 20+ PER and he's blocked more than 2 shots a game every season since he turned 22 (Read: every season he's had significant playing time). He rebounds well and has shown a willingness to play through injury during the playoffs.

His offensive inefficiency is because he was on a bad offensive team and was asked to carry the load.

in 02-03 O'Neal shot 47.9% and his team shot 43.7%
in 03-04, O'Neal's horrible 43.5% was still a hair above his team's average
in 04-05 the Pacers shot a horrid 42.8% while O'Neal plucked in 24+ a game on 45.2% shooting

It's not like he brings his team down with his bad shot selection, he was a good offensive player in a bad offense. That won't be the case when paired with a great point guard and (hopefully) some good shooters.

Christ, I sorta deserved it for Isiah, but for taking a 20+ PER guy who plays great defense with the 67th pick...
In 02-03, O'Neal had two very efficient players playing along side him. One of them was Reggie Miller ffs.

The problem with O'neal is not just his low fg%. He doesn't do anything else offensively. He can't shoot 3s and he can't shoot free throws. A guy like Reggie Miller "only" shot .441, but he was way more efficient than Jermaine.

Also, PER will always overrate a guy who takes 17 shots per game at an inefficient rate. You can't say his inefficiency is OK, he has a 20 PER. He has a 20 PER because he's inefficient.
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:51 AM   #5027
NozeCandy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NozeCandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: lol goofybawler
Posts: 29,251
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingmoose View Post
At the risk of being laughed out of the thread again, I guess I'll give it a shot.

Starting at 24, JO had 4 straight seasons of 20+ PER and he's blocked more than 2 shots a game every season since he turned 22 (Read: every season he's had significant playing time). He rebounds well and has shown a willingness to play through injury during the playoffs.

His offensive inefficiency is because he was on a bad offensive team and was asked to carry the load.

in 02-03 O'Neal shot 47.9% and his team shot 43.7%
in 03-04, O'Neal's horrible 43.5% was still a hair above his team's average
in 04-05 the Pacers shot a horrid 42.8% while O'Neal plucked in 24+ a game on 45.2% shooting

It's not like he brings his team down with his bad shot selection, he was a good offensive player in a bad offense. That won't be the case when paired with a great point guard and (hopefully) some good shooters.

Christ, I sorta deserved it for Isiah, but for taking a 20+ PER guy who plays great defense with the 67th pick...
He had 20+ PER for two real seasons. Then he had 20+ PER for two seasons where he played 44 and 51 games. Then it dropped to 18.8 as he played a decent 69 games. Then it plummeted to 14.4 while playing half a season. He is really injury prone and shows signs of declining, as he used to put up good numbers while being hurt, but really isn't anymore. He's only 29, but he's been in the league for 12 years now and has a TON of miles on him. Him returning to form is really, really unlikely. It's a good pick if you're trying to win in the next 2 years. After that, it's not.
NozeCandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:51 AM   #5028
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

oh sweet while the ball is rolling epip is going to bump old **** to argue about.

moose,

Nice post.

Shark,

Nice pick. I was beginning to consider him even though he plays the same spot as Bird. I'm a little down on him just due to the gay 24 thing again.
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:52 AM   #5029
nath
the second coming of the second coming
 
nath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rust and Marty, a hundred years
Posts: 67,722
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
I guess that means I either know more players to choose from, or I have bigger balls than you.
fewer brains /= more balls

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Okay, you're right, I'd rather win games 110-100 than 51-49.
must be why you drafted a guy who's never won a playoff series
nath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #5030
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
This is now the third time I've asked you this.....

Obviously I'm a big defensive first fan, and my picks probably will reflect that unless great values drop to me. Why is defense more important in this format than in the normal NBA? I think its equally important in both. I've already explained why twice, so I won't go through it all again, but I'm interested in hearing your reasoning.
I honestly don't even care this much about this draft anymore to even keep this a secret anylonger (although obv some of u knew).

defense isn't that much more important in this league than in normal nba. However players that can play BOTH elite defense AND offense while also being able to play off the ball offense (not just ball in their hands offense) is by far much more important, and was at a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE premium (only a few players are left that can do this and I don't even care if they get taken anymore).
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #5031
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i'm assuming Alex is the break tonight. Haven't seen him at all
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #5032
HighStakesPro
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,949
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Arcades View Post
In 02-03, O'Neal had two very efficient players playing along side him. One of them was Reggie Miller ffs.

The problem with O'neal is not just his low fg%. He doesn't do anything else offensively. He can't shoot 3s and he can't shoot free throws. A guy like Reggie Miller "only" shot .441, but he was way more efficient than Jermaine.

Also, PER will always overrate a guy who takes 17 shots per game at an inefficient rate. You can't say his inefficiency is OK, he has a 20 PER. He has a 20 PER because he's inefficient.
How does Player Efficiency Rating overrate inefficient players?
HighStakesPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:56 AM   #5033
Dudd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: pm karak w/ ffb questions
Posts: 54,252
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
i'm assuming Alex is the break tonight. Haven't seen him at all
Guess this is my cue to sleep.
Dudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:56 AM   #5034
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

it's a definite critique of Hollinger's rating. more shots = more points = higher PER. He tends to overrate chuckers. He argues that there's positive value in a guy who scores a lot even if he does so inefficiently (i.e. high usage)... over say a chucker who doesn't get the ball much
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:57 AM   #5035
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Okay so now that some of you on your high horses have done your "LOLOLOL" routine, why don't you explain in more detail your disdain for the pick so much, and actually make a coherent argument against the points I made in the writeup.
Sure thing.....

-Marbury is 5th among active players in loss shares.

-Marbury just doesn't seem to win:

He was drafted by the Timberwolves. They won 40 and 45 games with him. They traded him midseason the next year. The first full year without him they won 50 games.

The Nets won 26 games with Marbury in 00-01(Marbury was traded right near the end of the season). The next year with Kidd instead of Marbury they won 52 games.

The 03-04 Suns won 29 games. They traded Marbury midseason. Next season with Nash they won 62 games.

Obviously he hasn't been a winner with the Knicks.


-"In all seriousness though, we aren't doing an 82-game regular season, it's basically just one big playoffs, so Marbury will definitely not be half-assing on the court when everything is at stake. "

I found this statement interesting consider that in 4 playoff appearances Marbury put up a 36.5 FG% and a 121-64 assist-to-turnover ratio.

-Marbury is bat**** insane.

-Marbury is not a good defender, nor is he extremely efficient, nor is he a huge bulk scorer. He does nothing at an elite level. This is still round 2. You should be getting someone who does SOMETHING elite. Marbury will score 20 points per game with below average efficiency. He'll dish out 7 or 8 assists per game. He'll be weak defensively.

-Marbury is going to take shots, and you only have one ball. In a draft like this you're going to have a lot of efficient teams. Marbury kills you here, and like I said above he adds nothing. I could understand an inefficient player like Ben Wallace who gives you something(defense) and doesn't take a lot of shots, but Marbury doesn't give you anything really.

-Defense, defense, defense, defense, defense. Its what wins basketball games. Marbury is not good at it.

-Marbury is struggling to get playing time on the New York ****ing Knicks right now. Think about that.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 01:58 AM   #5036
EPiPeN11
banned
 
EPiPeN11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: akon is the goat
Posts: 18,605
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I never noticed you were saying McHale was better than KG too until now. Wow, just wow.....
KG is obv better than Barkley/Malone in this format, and is obv the closest to McHale. However I would still take McHale over KG.

KG has gotten overrated over the years (omg i'm a boston homer and saying this, and note i've said this in other theards BEFORE this draft).

Both his defense and offense are overrated. His defense is very good don't get me wrong, but his 1v1 man to man defense is not elite at all. He is an elite help defender (helping out on other peoples mans like Ben Wallace) but he cannot guard most elite players in the post.

And his offense is overrated also. I don't agree that much with the tnt guys, but they are right when they say KG can never go for 40 points etc. He just can't dominate, he can't take/score consistantly easy buckets in the post. He always takes fallaway jump shots after posting up his man, he doesn't have the stength or post moves like McHale and for some reason cannot blow buy a guy like (example zomg Amare) can.

His jump shot is very good, if not great, but he is just not a great post player at all. He can't create his own shot 1v1 consistantly at a top 5 elite level like someone like McHale could.

ZOMG i'm a Boston homer and saying KG is overrated. Oh wait...i'm not a Boston homer.

Edit: Shouldn't say never for KG going for 40+ just veryyyyyyyyy rarley

Last edited by EPiPeN11; 05-20-2008 at 02:12 AM.
EPiPeN11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:00 AM   #5037
Shark Doctor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Shark Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: GTA
Posts: 11,739
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

How long is this McHale crap going to last???

over under on 5 more rounds??
Shark Doctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:01 AM   #5038
Jack of Arcades
Jumbo Jack
 
Jack of Arcades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Bastion
Posts: 23,569
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
How does Player Efficiency Rating overrate inefficient players?
It sounds weird, right? The scoring component of PER is this:

PTS + FG*.4 - FGA*.7 - (FTA-FT)*.7

The "break even point" on two-pointers is only 30%. Surely a guy who's shooting 30% isn't helping his team, right?
Jack of Arcades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:03 AM   #5039
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Maybe in your white boys league.
I'm thinking right now if I'd trade you my 10th round pick for Marbury and I'm having a really tough time deciding. No I'm not joking.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:03 AM   #5040
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

assani,

tsk tsk. edit plz
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:04 AM   #5041
BJLTNYK
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BJLTNYK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 14,406
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Assani,

Those are all excellent reasons why Marbury is horrible and bat**** insane.

Well done,
BJLTNYK
BJLTNYK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:04 AM   #5042
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtemp View Post
BTW, if anyone wants to pm who would be a better fit there go ahead. I'm all for learning.
Not trying to be a dick here as you seem genuine, but how about any player who doesn't play the exact same position(PF) and have the exact same fault(poor defense) as your first round pick?

I like Boozer and would've definitely considered him at my pick to play with Duncan, but with Dirk it just doesn't work imo.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:06 AM   #5043
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaDi View Post
Is there going to be a separate round just for coaches or can we pick them at any round?
any round.

What does everyone think of drafting cities to play in as well? Good idea or waste of time?
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:06 AM   #5044
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

waste. I draft Providence, RI
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:07 AM   #5045
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
I'm assuming any round, but anything other than round 9 is a pretty big leak imo
I wanna stop this conversation here. I think we should let everyone form their coach pick strategy completely on their own.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:08 AM   #5046
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
is Marbury pick < Bynum pick?
I like Bynum better because theres potential for something great. With Marbury you know what you're getting(and its not good).
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:09 AM   #5047
kidcolin
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kidcolin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: thank god for the hatchery
Posts: 108,763
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I wanna stop this conversation here. I think we should let everyone form their coach pick strategy completely on their own.
whilst I name a ton of coaches and players a few posts up
kidcolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:09 AM   #5048
dtemp
veteran
 
dtemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,397
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
Not trying to be a dick here as you seem genuine, but how about any player who doesn't play the exact same position(PF) and have the exact same fault(poor defense) as your first round pick?

I like Boozer and would've definitely considered him at my pick to play with Duncan, but with Dirk it just doesn't work imo.
Not taking it as a dick comment. I go brain dead sometimes. I think Dirk can play SF though. The other point is still valid though.
dtemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:11 AM   #5049
NozeCandy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
NozeCandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: lol goofybawler
Posts: 29,251
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Probably a waste of time. Whoever has Manu would just draft Buenos Aires and undoubtedly he would get a ton of calls for flopping.
NozeCandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 02:11 AM   #5050
Assani Fisher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Assani Fisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 48,128
Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStakesPro View Post
Lol, I don't give two ****s if Charles and the rest of my team likes him around the locker room, remember we are not going to play an 82 game season, basically just a bunch of playoff series. Anyone remember Marbury's buzzer beating three in Game 1 Suns vs Spurs?
I don't know what you guys are talking about regarding judging these teams, but this is incorrect. I instructed everyone to draft teams as if they were starting a franchise to play in a league with today's NBA rules. Today's NBA rules means 82 games season.
Assani Fisher is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive