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Old 05-18-2008, 12:59 PM   #3901
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
lol stockton was a sick pick and should have went at exactly #11 (everyone in the top 10 was better, but he shoulda went before Chris Paul, Malone, and Barkley.)

And lol at thinking Amare should be higher, let alone much higher than McHale. You obviously don't know much about NBA history at all. I will break it down for u in simple terms tho.

Offense:

McHale >> Amare

Rebounding:

McHale >>>>>>> Amare

Defense:

McHale >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amare
rofl..........McHale #1, as I said earlier

i bet he's faster, better dunker, more athletic too.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:02 PM   #3902
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
rofl..........McHale #1, as I said earlier

i bet he's faster, better dunker, more athletic too.
uh no, stop putting words in my mouth. I would take all these players over McHale (in no order).

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Robinson
Kobe
Stockton
Ewing

U can make a case for Bird or Magic, but in this draft i'd rather have McHale because defense is more important than offense.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:03 PM   #3903
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
lol stockton was a sick pick and should have went at exactly #11 (everyone in the top 10 was better, but he shoulda went before Chris Paul, Malone, and Barkley.)

And lol at thinking Amare should be higher, let alone much higher than McHale. You obviously don't know much about NBA history at all. I will break it down for u in simple terms tho.

Offense:

McHale >> Amare

Rebounding:

McHale >>>>>>> Amare

Defense:

McHale >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amare
Man, you think McHale is God or something.

I agree with your overall point about McHale>Amare, but thats due to Amare's defense sucking so much.


First off, the Celtics played at a significantly faster pace than the Suns. Not the Suns fault as the entire league simply played faster back then, but still lets realize that this impacts their numbers.

Secondly, in their primes McHale played more minutes per game. If you look at their stats per 36 minutes it helps Amare.

Yet depite all that, Amare still put up better rebounding numbers than McHale. Amare has pretty much proven to be a 9rpg type of guy(seasons of 8.8, 9.0, 8.9, 9.6, and 9.1). McHale had one season of 9.9 and otherwise was lower than that in every year. And if you really want to see Amare's dominance then look at rebound rate, where he kills McHale.

With regards to offense, last year alone Amare put up 26.7 points on 65.5% TS%. McHale never topped either of those numbers once in his 13 year career.

At best you could argue that these two were comparable in these categories and that defense pushes McHale over the edge. But instead of doing that you present your opinion as absolute fact without providing any real evidence. And then you wonder why I call you a homer(its not just giving your opinion....its stating it as a fact as if you know you're right when in fact the stats don't back you up much at all).
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:03 PM   #3904
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Epipen constantly talking about how great Mchale is has somehow made people hate the pick when it was getting a lot of love earlier.

Good work Epipen, good work.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:04 PM   #3905
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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assani,

did we ever get an answer to your riddle?
No. I don't think anyone really tried to solve it though, did they?
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:05 PM   #3906
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post

U can make a case for Bird or Magic, but in this draft i'd rather have McHale because defense is more important than offense.
Honest question: Is Kevin McHale your dad?
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:10 PM   #3907
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Man, you think McHale is God or something.

I agree with your overall point about McHale>Barkley, but thats due to Amare's defense sucking so much.


First off, the Celtics played at a significantly faster pace than the Suns. Not the Suns fault as the entire league simply played faster back then, but still lets realize that this impacts their numbers.

Secondly, in their primes McHale played more minutes per game. If you look at their stats per 36 minutes it helps Amare.

Yet depite all that, Amare still put up better rebounding numbers than McHale. Amare has pretty much proven to be a 9rpg type of guy(seasons of 8.8, 9.0, 8.9, 9.6, and 9.1). McHale had one season of 9.9 and otherwise was lower than that in every year. And if you really want to see Amare's dominance then look at rebound rate, where he kills McHale.

With regards to offense, last year alone Amare put up 26.7 points on 65.5% TS%. McHale never topped either of those numbers once in his 13 year career.

At best you could argue that these two were comparable in these categories and that defense pushes McHale over the edge. But instead of doing that you present your opinion as absolute fact without providing any real evidence. And then you wonder why I call you a homer(its not just giving your opinion....its stating it as a fact as if you know you're right when in fact the stats don't back you up much at all).
And this is why stats don't show the whole story. McHale was a great rebounder, look it up, everyone who has ever talked about McHale mentions his great rebounding. He didn't grab as many rebounds as he could have because he was playing with 2 other great rebounders. I have NEVER heard Amare be called a great rebounder, and that's because he isn't.

The Celtics also had a ton of offensive weapons and a deep bench.

McHale is better on offense, Amare is practically involved in every play the Suns run (pick and roll with Nash) and gets spoonfed a bunch of easy dunks. Amare doesn't have close to the post moves that McHale does, you can't feed the ball to Amare in the post and have him constantly score at a high percentage. That is what makes McHale's fg% a lot more impressive, he was scoring out of the post, not off open dunks off a pick and roll.

It's not that I am a homer, it's that you guys drastically underrate McHale because a) you never saw him play b) he came off the bench for like 5-6 years c) he only played 2 years as a starter when healthy.

Talk to ANYONE who knows the NBA that saw McHale play and they will agree with me on how great he was. There is a reason ton of analyists talk about McHale in a lot higher regard than any of you do and it has nothing to do with me being a homer.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:10 PM   #3908
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Didn't he say he only saw 15 games of him on Classic.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:11 PM   #3909
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
No. I don't think anyone really tried to solve it though, did they?
I tried to last night when I was drunko but it didn't work. Still curious though. I tried looking through this thread for the exact riddle this morning, but couldn't find it and there's so many variations on google that I couldn't find the answer or even the original riddle.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:13 PM   #3910
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Also as someone pointed out if you didn't bring him up every f'in time you post, noone would be ragging on you. It's annoying. Great you got McHale he's great for your team now stfu.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:14 PM   #3911
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also as someone pointed out if you didn't bring him up every f'in time you post, noone would be ragging on you. It's annoying. Great you got McHale he's great for your team now stfu.
I don't bring him up in every post, learn to read better please. Infact I'm positive less than 50 percent of my posts in this thread have been about McHale.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:20 PM   #3912
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
uh no, stop putting words in my mouth. I would take all these players over McHale (in no order).

Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Robinson
Kobe
Stockton
Ewing

U can make a case for Bird or Magic, but in this draft i'd rather have McHale because defense is more important than offense.
OK, just to make things clear, you believe McHale should have been taken 10th, ahead of Bird, Magic, Malone, and Barkley.

I disagree.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:21 PM   #3913
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
And this is why stats don't show the whole story. McHale was a great rebounder, look it up, everyone who has ever talked about McHale mentions his great rebounding. He didn't grab as many rebounds as he could have because he was playing with 2 other great rebounders. I have NEVER heard Amare be called a great rebounder, and that's because he isn't.
So basically any stat in which McHale doesn't measure up well you're going to hide behind the fact that he was playing with other great players. Did Amare not play with Shawn Marion who gobbled up his fair share of rebounds(as much as Bird or Parish did in their primes too)?

This is why I can't argue with you...no matter what I say you're going to go back to "stats not telling the whole story" or "McHale's stats being hurt by playing with Bird/Parish." Meanwhile you totally ignore the pace factor and the fact that having a superstar SF who loves to pass can help teamate's stats as well. I think those two things make up for the "stats being hurt by playing with other superstars" argument.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:22 PM   #3914
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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OK, just to make things clear, you believe McHale should have been taken 10th, ahead of Bird, Magic, Malone, and Barkley.

I disagree.
In this draft yes because of how important defense is.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:23 PM   #3915
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You obviously don't know much about NBA history at all.
Didn't you just say you didn't even realize Dumars could play Point? Honestly from the way you post, I'm assuming you're about 16, which means the only way you've ever seen most of the players you're commenting on play is on random games chosen for ESPN Classic, which are more likely to be the best performances of the key players in that game, since they're not going to show some random regular season game where McHale for instance had a 16/8 game in 30 minutes of playing time.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:24 PM   #3916
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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So basically any stat in which McHale doesn't measure up well you're going to hide behind the fact that he was playing with other great players. Did Amare not play with Shawn Marion who gobbled up his fair share of rebounds(as much as Bird or Parish did in their primes too)?

This is why I can't argue with you...no matter what I say you're going to go back to "stats not telling the whole story" or "McHale's stats being hurt by playing with Bird/Parish." Meanwhile you totally ignore the pace factor and the fact that having a superstar SF who loves to pass can help teamate's stats as well. I think those two things make up for the "stats being hurt by playing with other superstars" argument.
Amare played with one great rebounder in Marion who wasn't even as great as a rebounder as Parish was. The rest of the suns rebounding was awful. The Celtics had the best rebounding frontline in NBA History. The Suns arguably had one of the worst, they got outrebounded a ton each game.

Stats don't tell the whole story with McHale, if you can't realize that after the 1000 times i've explained well, maybe you should look into hooked on phonics.

There is a reason McHale is always brought up in greatest PF of all time discussions, even though he didn't have the longevity/"career numbers"/came off the bench for 6 years etc.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:26 PM   #3917
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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McHale is better on offense, Amare is practically involved in every play the Suns run (pick and roll with Nash) and gets spoonfed a bunch of easy dunks. Amare doesn't have close to the post moves that McHale does, you can't feed the ball to Amare in the post and have him constantly score at a high percentage. That is what makes McHale's fg% a lot more impressive, he was scoring out of the post, not off open dunks off a pick and roll.
And McHale doesn't have anywhere near the finishing ability and athleticism of Amare. Whats the point?

Yes they were different players. Yes McHale's strength was throwing him the ball in the post and clearing out for him, while with Amare it may be better to run the pick n roll(or pick n pop since he developed his mid range game). I don't see why this makes either one better, but you act as if it makes McHale better. Its just different styles. If anything I would way that Amare's "style" frees up his teamates for open looks even more, as when him and Nash run the pick n roll, people often have to sag down leaving a 3 point shooter open for Nash to find(McHale would often be double teamed leaving people open, but he wasn't a great passer so it was moot).

You say that McHale's FG% is "more impressive" because it was post moves and not dunks. I say "who cares??!!!". Two points is two points. Why should we penalize someone because their athletic ability allows them to take easier shots?
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:26 PM   #3918
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Didn't you just say you didn't even realize Dumars could play Point? Honestly from the way you post, I'm assuming you're about 16, which means the only way you've ever seen most of the players you're commenting on play is on random games chosen for ESPN Classic, which are more likely to be the best performances of the key players in that game, since they're not going to show some random regular season game where McHale for instance had a 16/8 game in 30 minutes of playing time.
omg I didn't know one little thing about Joe Dumars omgggggggg alert the presses.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:28 PM   #3919
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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It's not that I am a homer, it's that you guys drastically underrate McHale because a) you never saw him play b) he came off the bench for like 5-6 years c) he only played 2 years as a starter when healthy.
than any of you do and it has nothing to do with me being a homer.
a. I would be willing to bet that I've seen more footage of McHale than you. And even if I havn't, this is a completely laughable statement coming from someone who earlier admitted to having seen maybe 15 games of McHale.

b. You act as if this is a good thing. Last I checked, the NBA coaches working with those Celtics had a much better understanding of McHale's skills than you and I. And if they determined that McHale shouldn't be starting then that reflects poorly of McHale.

c. And that hurts you a lot in this format, but you keep ignoring that.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:29 PM   #3920
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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omg I didn't know one little thing about Joe Dumars omgggggggg alert the presses.
You didn't know something about Joe Dumars that anyone who knows anything about the era of basketball he played in would have known. It is a huge knock to your self-proclaimed expertise of nba history.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:31 PM   #3921
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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And McHale doesn't have anywhere near the finishing ability and athleticism of Amare. Whats the point?

Yes they were different players. Yes McHale's strength was throwing him the ball in the post and clearing out for him, while with Amare it may be better to run the pick n roll(or pick n pop since he developed his mid range game). I don't see why this makes either one better, but you act as if it makes McHale better. Its just different styles. If anything I would way that Amare's "style" frees up his teamates for open looks even more, as when him and Nash run the pick n roll, people often have to sag down leaving a 3 point shooter open for Nash to find(McHale would often be double teamed leaving people open, but he wasn't a great passer so it was moot).

You say that McHale's FG% is "more impressive" because it was post moves and not dunks. I say "who cares??!!!". Two points is two points. Why should we penalize someone because their athletic ability allows them to take easier shots?
Because Amare needs a great PG to be great, McHale doesn't. You can't just throw the ball to Amare at the end of a game, and say hey score, like you could McHale.

Also compare McHale to other great low post scorers who were drafted ahead of him.

Hakeem only shot between like .500-.510 for most of his career. Duncan only shot like .490-.510 for most of his career. Robinson was great for his early years (shooting roughly .550) but then at 27 and later shot between .500-.510 mostly.

Barkley's fg percentage dropped drastically once they made the 5 second rule and only shot between .500-.515 basacally.

The only low post player who scored more efficently is Shaq.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:32 PM   #3922
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Talk to ANYONE who knows the NBA that saw McHale play and they will agree with me on how great he was. There is a reason ton of analyists talk about McHale in a lot higher regard than any of you do and it has nothing to do with me being a homer.
Anyone who knows the NBA? Last I checked there were a lot of really smart NBA guys in here. I'd put our collective knowledge up against anyone, especially the "analysists" on ESPN that you seem to think are so great.

Seriously, I have RESPECTFULLY disagreed with you in the past, but this statement is both arrogant and ridiculous. There are plenty of people here who know their stuff, and I'd include myself in that group.

As has been said, nobody hated your pick. We just feel as if you think your pick was way better than it was. Theres a reason why so many of us passed on McHale and contrary to your views it wasn't because we don't know as much as your favorite analysts.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:34 PM   #3923
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I'd put our collective knowledge up against anyone, especially the "analysists" on ESPN that you seem to think are so great.
These same analysts said last night on SportsCenter that Robert Horry should be in the HOF, to give you an idea of the level of expertise that you're dealing with at ESPN.

And nobody complain cuz I mentioned a player's name. If you were honestly thinking about drafting Horry anytime even remotely soon, if at all, in this draft, you should pretty much just drop out of this thing now.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:34 PM   #3924
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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a. I would be willing to bet that I've seen more footage of McHale than you. And even if I havn't, this is a completely laughable statement coming from someone who earlier admitted to having seen maybe 15 games of McHale.

b. You act as if this is a good thing. Last I checked, the NBA coaches working with those Celtics had a much better understanding of McHale's skills than you and I. And if they determined that McHale shouldn't be starting then that reflects poorly of McHale.

c. And that hurts you a lot in this format, but you keep ignoring that.
I base my arguments off what the experts say, not the 15 or so games I saw.

And wow point b just shows how clueless u are. I'm sure u think Manu isn't good enough to start either? It wasn't that McHale wasn't good enough to start (he was clearly better than Maxwell), it was that they wanted scoring off the bench. Get a clue seriously.

Why would playing on a broken foot hurt me in this format? You obviously don't realize McHale would have been FINE if he had rested his foot, and that he was very durable. It's gotten ridiculous.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:36 PM   #3925
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Anyone who knows the NBA? Last I checked there were a lot of really smart NBA guys in here. I'd put our collective knowledge up against anyone, especially the "analysists" on ESPN that you seem to think are so great.

Seriously, I have RESPECTFULLY disagreed with you in the past, but this statement is both arrogant and ridiculous. There are plenty of people here who know their stuff, and I'd include myself in that group.

As has been said, nobody hated your pick. We just feel as if you think your pick was way better than it was. Theres a reason why so many of us passed on McHale and contrary to your views it wasn't because we don't know as much as your favorite analysts.
You guys might know more about the game TODAY but I guarentee u NBA analyists know more about the 80's than pretty much all of u so called experts. I will take Hubie Browns opinions on 80's players over any of urs anyday and it's not even close.

I mean you called Amare a better rebounder than McHale for crying out loud.
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