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Old 05-16-2008, 10:03 PM   #3501
LurchySoprano
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Arguing McHale is better than Barkley or Malone is lol. I like McHale more than most, but saying he's not as good as those two isn't exactly a slap in the face.

Add me to the group that wanted Nance. I was looking up a few players two nights ago and found Nance and loved the number that I saw. Sick pick IMO and hilarious that me and about 10 other people were wanting him to fall.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:05 PM   #3502
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i wasn't cognizant during McHale's career, so can somebody tell me why he wasn't starting during his first 6 years if he was "the best PF ever"? and especially that he got beaten out for All-NBA 1st (and 2nd!) teams by these same players that he's better than?

and where is battschr? 4 hours is unacceptable this close to my pick
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:07 PM   #3503
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

kevin mchale was insanely average and slow. would have been nowhere near as popular if he was not white and on the celtics.

Bynum is also a terrible pick in your position. You should have atleast tried to trade down.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:09 PM   #3504
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by KLJ View Post
i wasn't cognizant during McHale's career, so can somebody tell me why he wasn't starting during his first 6 years if he was "the best PF ever"? and especially that he got beaten out for All-NBA 1st (and 2nd!) teams by these same players that he's better than?
have you atleast seen the old celtics playoff games? he does alot of standing around and diving at balls. saw alot of james worthy's crotch iirc
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:09 PM   #3505
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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i wasn't cognizant during McHale's career, so can somebody tell me why he wasn't starting during his first 6 years if he was "the best PF ever"? and especially that he got beaten out for All-NBA 1st (and 2nd!) teams by these same players that he's better than?
Because the Celtics wanted offense off the bench (like the Spurs use Manu).

He only got beaten out of first all-nba and 2nd when he was coming off the bench or after he got hurt.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:09 PM   #3506
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I wanted Sheed soooooo bad.

Great pick.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:11 PM   #3507
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xxThe_Lebowskixx View Post
kevin mchale was insanely average and slow. would have been nowhere near as popular if he was not white and on the celtics.

Bynum is also a terrible pick in your position. You should have atleast tried to trade down.
lol @ calling McHale insanely average of slow. He was one of the greatest players ever, and was not slow at all, he was actually quick for his size (Bird was the one who was slow, not McHale).


"He became the most difficult low-post player to defend -- once he made the catch -- in the history of the league," contended former NBA coach Hubie Brown in the Boston Globe. "He was totally unstoppable because of his quickness, diversification of moves and the long arms that gave him an angle to release the ball over a taller man or more explosive jumper."

"McHale's unusual combination of size and agility made him a hot prospect."

"McHale would be the first to admit that the 1987 Finals probably shortened his career. He played the six-game series against the Lakers on what was essentially a broken foot. The pain was so bad that he used a patio chair from the hotel pool as a walker, yet he played 40 minutes each night. The Celtics lost the series in six games and McHale underwent surgery on his right foot during the offseason. "

http://www.nba.com/history/players/mchale_bio.html
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:12 PM   #3508
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

add me to the list of people saying who the **** is larry nance
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:12 PM   #3509
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
Because the Celtics wanted offense off the bench (like the Spurs use Manu).

He only got beaten out of first all-nba and 2nd when he was coming off the bench or after he got hurt.
You've got to admit that his getting hurt is a result of being 'injury prone', as opposed to KG or Karl Malone or Sir Charles who are much more robusto and give you all the same things. He is not better or equal to these guys because he is injury prone.

I think you got good value (21 right?). Can we just leave it at that?
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:13 PM   #3510
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Are we really extrapolating 18 months of McHale to be >>> 20 years of Mailman.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:14 PM   #3511
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

^^ payton/sheed is surprising bland, and while you can only do so much with your draft position, its not like he has any chance whatsoever to get ahead of a team with an actual star.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:15 PM   #3512
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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add me to the list of people saying who the **** is larry nance
i hadn't heard of him before.

you tube was pretty sick tho u gotta admit. those blocks were crazy. the dunks too.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:15 PM   #3513
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Are we really extrapolating 18 months of McHale to be >>> 20 years of Mailman.
KM career and peak PER is also 4 to 5 points higher per game then McHale. Defensively McHale is better but not by that much.

KMalone's top PER was 29 which is damn high.....McHale in his MVP caliber year was 24. Malones average was 23.9.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:16 PM   #3514
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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^^ payton/sheed is surprising bland, and while you can only do so much with your draft position, its not like he has any chance whatsoever to get ahead of a team with an actual star.
thats why reverse snake is alot more fair IMO.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:18 PM   #3515
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Are we really extrapolating 18 months of McHale to be >>> 20 years of Mailman.
doesn't matter, 3 months of bynum >> *
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:19 PM   #3516
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

can anyone explain what PER i didnt really look at it for my pick. whats everyones obsession w/ it
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:20 PM   #3517
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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You've got to admit that his getting hurt is a result of being 'injury prone', as opposed to KG or Karl Malone or Sir Charles who are much more robusto and give you all the same things. He is not better or equal to these guys because he is injury prone.

I think you got good value (21 right?). Can we just leave it at that?
I don't think he is injury prone at all. He played 82, 82, 82, 82, 79, and 64, 68, and 77 games in his first 8 seasons before he played in a playoff series with a broken foot which messed up his career. If he had just rested it, he would have been healthy for even longer.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:21 PM   #3518
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

epi do you realize how big of a C's fan your coming off as?
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:22 PM   #3519
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

It's a per-minute measure of how good a player is (like DVOA). It tries to encompass everything, but fails mostly because it cannot take into account things that don't show up in the box score (see: defense). There are also some usage vs. efficiency problems with it (which is more valuable) and I think it generally is still a little team-dependent, but these are relatively minor problems compared to not being able to look at defense.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:22 PM   #3520
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Player Efficiency Rating. It's a way to gauge players with no regard to the number of minutes they played b/c it's per minute. So Epipen's argument is that McHale came off the bench and is why his numbers aren't as good as others. Well, I look at PER and Malone's PER is much higher. It also adjusts for pace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating

PER strives to measure a player's per-minute performance, while adjusting for pace. A league-average PER is always 15.00, which permits comparisons of player performance across seasons.

PER takes into account positive accomplishments, such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones, such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls. The formula adds positive stats and subtracts negative ones through a statistical point value system. The rating for each player is then adjusted to a per-minute basis so that, for example, substitutes can be compared with starters in playing time debates. It is also adjusted for the team's pace. In the end, one number sums up the players' statistical accomplishments for that season.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:24 PM   #3521
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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can anyone explain what PER i didnt really look at it for my pick. whats everyones obsession w/ it
PER is a per possession stat normalized to the league to make 15 league average. The basic formula is

(Points x 1.0) + (FGM x 0.4) + (FGA x -0.7) + ((FTA-FTM) x -0.4) + (OREB x 0.7) + (DREB x 0.3) + (STL x 1.0) + (AST x 0.7) + (BLK x 0.7) + (PF x -0.4) + (TO x -1.0)

It probably overrates inefficient shooters. It underrates defensive players like Rodman and Bowen.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:37 PM   #3522
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Hi guys, thank you for drafting me despite breaking my thumb my rookie year as well as the same thumb the following year. I have had other lows as well such as setting the record for technical fouls (41) in 00-01 which broke my previous record of 38 from the before. I was also suspended 7 games for threatening Tim Donaghy which was the longest non-violence related or drug related suspension ever. I know I have let my team down before, but I have learned my lesson (over and over again), I don't want to have to go through the letdown I felt of the ECF from last year when I received two technical fouls after fouling Lebron in game 6 which caused my ejection from the game and hurt my team. Thank you for drafting me.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:44 PM   #3523
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yea way to ignore everything I said. This isn't a draft on career achievements, it's a draft based on if u cloned someone at age 24, who would have a better career/team etc.
Clearly we're all wrong and you're right. We're all biased against Boston teams which is why we continually underrate them in all discussions with you, while you have no bias whatsoever obviously.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:47 PM   #3524
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Clearly we're all wrong and you're right. We're all biased against Boston teams which is why we continually underrate them in all discussions with you, while you have no bias whatsoever obviously.
If McHale had played for any other team, I would still be ranting/raving about him and my thoughts would be the exact same.

I have constantly loved players who aren't on the Celtics, and constantly thought some on the Celtics were overrated (Powe, Rondo, Tony Allen, Ray Allen (although everyone hates Ray here) and even think KG is slightly overrated.

People need to realize that best PF ever (and best PF in this draft) are two very different things.

I just realize u guys are all stat junkies, and never actually saw McHale play so you don't appreciate his greatness.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:48 PM   #3525
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Also, +1 echoing assani's statements about epipen. I hate his posts when he discusses boston or boston players (AND I AM A BOSTON HOMER TOO!) but really love his posts about everything else. Worst homer ever, worse then dschm even.

I really don't even understand it. Honestly I'd like to get into the head of a homer once and just see what they're thinking. I mean does it really never occur to them "Gee I seem to agree with the other main basketball posters a lot except when discussing my favorite team when I always think my guys are better than they think. Same thing with football. Same thing with baseball. Hmmmm.....maybe just maybe I'm overrating my guys"???
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