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Old 05-16-2008, 07:22 PM   #3376
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
billups is certainly better.
+1 ldo
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:22 PM   #3377
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Stockton and Malone is the exact thing I'm talking about in my last post. Guys were made to play with each other and thus their stats are better than they actually are. It's not like football where Randy Moss is going to make every quarterback he ever plays with look like he should be in the HOF. You put Kemp with a great passer (Payton was never that great of a passer) and he'll be putting up much larger numbers.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:22 PM   #3378
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

tbach,

fair point about PFs/Cs drawing interior D out of the lane, and I do like the inside out ability of Sheed a ton. I've just watched (yes watched, I watch an assload of ball) too many games where he goes through long stretches of hardly being involved. Just roaming the perimeter, swinging the ball.

It's when Sheed asserts himself that he's absolutely balla. But you don't get that 100% of the time.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:24 PM   #3379
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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33% isn't really the "break even point" for 3s, but 35% for the last few years is okay. The problem is he's a really good post player. When he's not taking 3s he's taking low percentage jump shots, not getting to the free throw line, and he's not getting any offensive rebounds.

Even though his 3p shooting has improved a lot in the last few years, his efficiency is going down and so is his orb%.
Ok, but part of this is that he has been playing with a team that doesn't really have other 3 pt shooters (Chauncy and..... ??), while they do have other guys who are good rebounders at their position (other Wallace before, Maxiel now, Prince, etc).
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:24 PM   #3380
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Stockton and Malone is the exact thing I'm talking about in my last post. Guys were made to play with each other and thus their stats are better than they actually are.
except you've got no data to back this up. People say this **** all teh time and I don't see it.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:26 PM   #3381
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think Deron Williams was the best value pick so far, followed by Nance or Pippen.
+1


Although its weird...even though I didn't love either the Hill or Kemp picks at the time, I really like pairing them together.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:28 PM   #3382
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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tbach,

fair point about PFs/Cs drawing interior D out of the lane, and I do like the inside out ability of Sheed a ton. I've just watched (yes watched, I watch an assload of ball) too many games where he goes through long stretches of hardly being involved. Just roaming the perimeter, swinging the ball.

It's when Sheed asserts himself that he's absolutely balla. But you don't get that 100% of the time.
Yeah, he may or may not be as effective, and does get lost at times, but by accounts Sheed is one of the smartest basketball players in the league and I'm sure he's got a reason for doing what he does. If I watched more Pistons (I probably only saw them like 6-8 times this season) I'd know more. I'm gonna watch him really closely in the next round though.

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except you've got no data to back this up. People say this **** all teh time and I don't see it.
And there's no data to say that it isn't true. This whole draft is pretty speculative so you've got to form an opinion sometime
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:31 PM   #3383
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I agree with the injury risk, but you are vastly underrating Bynum.

64% FG (Nance about 57% over your span), with just under half of those being dunks.

Already 10 boards and 2 blocks per game, despite not averaging full starters minutes. This is not a usage/efficiency curve issue. He was playing full minutes when he got injured, but he started the season behind KwameLOL on the depth chart. His performance actually got better as his minutes went up.

The Lakers this year were one of the fastest teams in the league, and thus a good 10 possessions/game SLOWER than Nance's PHX teams.

If Bynum is only putting up 20/8/2 at age 24, it will be a giant disappointment, and that's in spite of the 10% pace handicap.

If his knee fully heals, he will be the 2nd best bigman in the NBA for the next 10 years, and maybe even the best, depending on how age affects both guys. He has a better around-the-basket post game than DH already, but DH overcomes that with athleticism (when Bynum went down, he was 2nd in the league in dunks and 3rd wasn't even close. It was similarly not even close between DH and Bynum.)

Awesome pick, Nopairparker. I approve whole-heartedly!
Seriously? I mean Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudamire have already put up MVP type seasons and you're assuming that someone who has put up All Star type production for 1/4 of a season will be better? Thats not to mention other big men entering the league or guys like Bosh, Ming, etc.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:32 PM   #3384
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Between him and Nash it's going to take a while for them to heat up but you have basically a monstrous offensive duo (not great D but they can get some charges!) for a very long time.
The problem is that I'm not sure that their offensive talent makes up for the fact that they are two guards and neither of them is an elite stopper. It's just that quality bigs will be harder to find, it's going to be tough to get a good one in the third and I'm not sure what you'll get picking up late in the fourth. Basically, you're probably never going to have a good defensive team, and might struggle to score inside.
to make up for that they'll need to be even better offensively, especially when guys with top scorers won't struglle top put points on the board.
At this point , Ginobilie is great value, but it's unfortunate to match up with Nash. It will be interesting to see how this team end up, maybe I'm wrong i my estimation of the talent left in the third and fourth round.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:32 PM   #3385
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Malone is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kemp
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:33 PM   #3386
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Malone is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kemp
yes, we've all noted your extreme hatred for kemp. was one of his children with your sister or something?
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:34 PM   #3387
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I'm not saying Malone and Stockton playing together isn't a + for each guy, but I don't think it's a HUGE factor. I mean I've seen arguments for both Malone and Stockton saying they'd never be all world without the other guy. That's ridiculous.

I can't name any guys so I won't, but there are lots of examples of great players getting split up and neither really dropping in production. If they raise it's usually just do to usage.

Take McHale and Bird. Bird missed the '88-'89 season. You'd expect McHale to step it up.. or perhaps you'd think losing Bird would make it too tough for him. Nope.. neither. Just about identical to his previous year.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:36 PM   #3388
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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yes, we've all noted your extreme hatred for kemp. was one of his children with your sister or something?
Ad hominem...

Doesn't change the fact that you greatly overrate Kemp...

The Kemp/Hill combo is good, but stop comparing Kemp to all-time greats...
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:36 PM   #3389
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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sheed and gp is such a badass team.
+1

Love the direction of that team. Sick defense.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:36 PM   #3390
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Dirk and Nash would be a classic example. Both actually improved after they split up.

Pippen played just as good (if not better) the year without Jordan.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:37 PM   #3391
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

sheed + gp has to be the best trash talking duo in the league right?
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:38 PM   #3392
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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BTW, Bynum really is LOL bad. And by LOL bad, I mean, at least 2 rounds too early, if not more.

People really just have no idea how common it is for guys to have downturns, and how rare it is to carry a peak for a prolonged period. People will start to understand as the draft progresses though.
Clark, can you name (PM me if you think it'd be an issue here) some guys who you think looked as good as Bynum and then dropped off without some reasonable explanation like injuries?

This is something I'm completely willing to change my mind on, but as I've said a bunch in the past, I see a lot of reasons why Bynum should be able to sustain and even improve on his performance so far.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:38 PM   #3393
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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sheed + gp has to be the best trash talking duo in the league right?
of course. Just another reason I wanted Larry + Sheed, btw. I'd have the real loud obnoxious **** talker and Larry whispering in your ear telling you how and where he's going to burn you.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:40 PM   #3394
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Take McHale and Bird. Bird missed the '88-'89 season. You'd expect McHale to step it up.. or perhaps you'd think losing Bird would make it too tough for him. Nope.. neither. Just about identical to his previous year.
McHale had been played injured for a year before that and obv it was even worse during the 88-89 season. McHale in the 88-89 season wasn't close to the one in the 85-86 season or even the 86-87 one where he hurt it.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:40 PM   #3395
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Do you really think any player on the Spurs is a massive hole on defense?
When you take into account the type of people he will have to defend against in this league he will probably be doing a lot worse than he is now.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:40 PM   #3396
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I'm not saying Malone and Stockton playing together isn't a + for each guy, but I don't think it's a HUGE factor. I mean I've seen arguments for both Malone and Stockton saying they'd never be all world without the other guy. That's ridiculous.

I can't name any guys so I won't, but there are lots of examples of great players getting split up and neither really dropping in production. If they raise it's usually just do to usage.

Take McHale and Bird. Bird missed the '88-'89 season. You'd expect McHale to step it up.. or perhaps you'd think losing Bird would make it too tough for him. Nope.. neither. Just about identical to his previous year.
So much of what McHale did was done in iso postups though. I think he was more helped by the fact that other teams would have more trouble doubling him (because he had great 3 pt shooters and the chief to help him out). I just remember so much of what Malone doing was greatly derived from one of the greatest passers of all time. Honestly, I think you put Kemp with Stockton (or Nash or Kidd) and you can pad up those stats all day.

Haha yeah van exel ad hominem. It's just that you've hated on the Kemp pick a lot already. That's the last I'll say about the Kemp to Malone comparison for now though. I've probably talked enough about what I think his play could've been (and Hill's injury) to make you think that my team is a lock for the 'ship (which I don't, depending on how a couple guys up top fill out their rosters).
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:41 PM   #3397
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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+1

Love the direction of that team. Sick defense.
Like I said, my only concerns are that neither of them can really rebound and you're really missing out on 3pt shooting. These can be remedied, but you're gonna be looking at a team without a real number one.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:42 PM   #3398
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Like I said, my only concerns are that neither of them can really rebound and you're really missing out on 3pt shooting. These can be remedied, but you're gonna be looking at a team without a real number one.
I don't wanna give too much away, but doesn't that kinda remind you of another team that Rasheed plays on?
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:43 PM   #3399
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

epip,

you don't have to keep reminding us how incredible and awesome McHale is every time someone mentions his name. Even injured McHale was pretty damn awesome; that wasn't my point.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:45 PM   #3400
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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epip,

you don't have to keep reminding us how incredible and awesome McHale is every time someone mentions his name. Even injured McHale was pretty damn awesome; that wasn't my point.
just saying ur example was flawed because u are comparing a healthy McHale with Bird to a hurt McHale without Bird and then trying to show that it sometimes doesn't matter about ur supporting cast ussage.
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