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Old 05-16-2008, 07:08 PM   #3351
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think that Ginobili coming to the NBA at 25, and playing two average years(by his standard obviously) before being awesome has got to hurt him a little.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:09 PM   #3352
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by ClarkNasty View Post
Trade with me and Dudd for the next pick

I trade my 2, 5 amd 8 picks for his 2, 6 and 8 picks.

I am on the clock.
Havn't read through the rest of the thread yet and I obviously don't think you're lying here, but it should be standard for BOTH parties to come in here and confirm the trade before the pick it made, guys. Not a huge deal though...



And I may still be interested in trading up if anyone wants to trade down.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:09 PM   #3353
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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He's the sort of raindrop that really raises the ocean if you know what I mean.
No, I do not know what you mean.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:10 PM   #3354
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
tbach and others basically sound like they're angling to all but eliminate injury concerns.

"With today's medical advancements" Bynum is still totally f'ed up. Hill busted his ankle in '99 dude not '79.
+1

there were some 80s and early 90s players who had injuries that might have been treated differently today, but i think this goes somewhat against the spirit of the league mostly because it adds another whole level of "what ifs"
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:11 PM   #3355
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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nance was a guy i thought about with my 2nd round pick simply because i found his numbers to be so staggering, but really have no idea how he played (never ever saw him play). anyone wanna comment on his game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMlU8ICH6lU

edit: See now that Bobbo already posted this, so heres another one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQP1zyift9w
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:12 PM   #3356
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Nance and Ewing as bigs is just sick.
Wow, didn't even think about his first pick. Yeah very nice. I too have thought about pairing another big with Duncan, but doesn't look like theres gonna be tons left.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:13 PM   #3357
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

i was looking at this thread last night and thinking sheed would be good value anywhere he went but that he would absolutely own with payton. top five pick thus far, i think.

sheed can stretch the floor (wtf at people complaining about his 3s, he shoots a lot of open ones and he makes them at >33%) which payton couldn't really, and this also helps since payton was an excellent post player himself.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:13 PM   #3358
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Notice how the Lakers aren't rushing Bynum back. I think Hill has been a big "oh wow look at what happened there" around the league. You can't deny the medical advancements especially when you look at a guy like Amare and what's happened there. And it's not just my teams. I think a guy like Bird would've had a much longer career if he played nowadays. "With today's medical advancements" is a very key phrase and is how I will be looking at a lot of these things.

Basically, work ethic + maturity go a looong way longer in staying healthy now than they did even 8 years ago (when Hill hurt his ankle).
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:13 PM   #3359
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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The amount of Sheed bashing that goes on makes me question whether or not any of you have ever played the game or just look at stats. He's the sort of raindrop that really raises the ocean if you know what I mean.
meh.. people like you tend to think stats are some made up ****. Since '01 he fell in love with 3s and launches 4+ a game, peaking near 6 a game.. and those are just shots. Their are long stretches where he's basically wandering the perimeter.

If we can just make this stuff disappear, we're basically making up players and might as well do just that. You gotta take the good with the bad. I think Sheed went about where he should, anywhere in the past 10 picks or so would be fine depending on the pairing. I probably would have stretched for him as many as 15 picks ago because I love him so, and he and Larry would be the ****ing nuts.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:13 PM   #3360
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No, I do not know what you mean.
I think he's an environmentalist.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:14 PM   #3361
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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No way on earth that Kemp was as god as Barkley in his prime. Look at it any way you want:

Barkley's career highs:
PPG: 28.3(87-88)
RPG: 14.6(86-97)
APG: 5.1(92-93)
TS%: 66.5(87-88)

Kemp's career highs:
PPG: 20.5(98-99)
RPG: 11.4(95-96)
APG: 2.6(93-94)
TS%: 63.1(95-96)


Barkley was insanely efficient even as a bulk scorer. He led the league in TS% 4 years in a row, all of which were higher than Kemp's career high of 63.1%. During those 4 years Barkley's PPG were 23.0, 28.3, 25.8, and 25.2, all of which are also better than Kemp's career high. He also dominates Kemp in rebounds and assists.

Kemp has 3 ALL NBA 2nd Teams.
Barkley has 5 ALL NBA 1st Teams, 5 2nd Teams, and one 3rd Team.

Kemp never finished higher than #7 in MVP voting.
Barkley won MVP once, finished 2nd once, finished 4th twice, and finished 6th four times.

Barkley's career PER is 24.6. Kemp's highest single season PER is 23.6 in 98-99.


I could go on and on, but really whats the point? Its not even close. I don't think Kemp was as good as Dirk or McHale either, but Barkley was the obvious disagreement that I had with your statement so I'll just focus on that one for now.
What about the Mailman? He is WAAAYYYYYYYYY better than Kemp. Kemp is/was highly overrated. Don't let all the youtube vids fool ya...
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:14 PM   #3362
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by horizon View Post
I think that Ginobili coming to the NBA at 25, and playing two average years(by his standard obviously) before being awesome has got to hurt him a little.
Between him and Nash it's going to take a while for them to heat up but you have basically a monstrous offensive duo (not great D but they can get some charges!) for a very long time.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:15 PM   #3363
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think it's interesting that Sheed, widely regarded as the best player of the famed Pistons starting five, went behind Billups and Ben, widely regarded as the worst player.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:16 PM   #3364
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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is that an era in 2p2 history? does that mean there's another one called the "fast food era" IMO someone needs to write a 2p2 history book. i could write chapters about theredpill and dead, two of the greats.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=171790

Not exactly what you want, but close.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:16 PM   #3365
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I've been dropping subtle hints about Manu for a long time now. Absolutely love him as a player. His PER has improved every single year and his advanced metrics this year were mostly all time highs for him. The writeup didn't even mention that he has been totally injury-free and is the most efficient player in the league in the closing minutes of close games (yes, even over Kobe), which some would call "clutch" but I'm not going down that road. Bill Simmons published some stats that he found from another site about that, but I don't feel like going back through his articles. He's also a sick free-throw shooter; him and Nash combined in that area is just ridiculous.

Oh, and sorry about Sheed KC, I know you wanted him
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:16 PM   #3366
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kbfc View Post
I know. Comparing him to other bad choices was more of a rhetorical thing. I haven't exactly mocked up the entire draft, as I'm not drafting, so it's just an easy way to pick out some targets.

I just randomly clicked about half of Sheed's seasons on b-ref and didn't find a single one where his team's pace was 90+. I'm going to assume that this carries over to his entire career, and if I'm wrong, it's probably just barely. Larry Nance at his peak got 8 boards/game with 15-20% more chances to do so. SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEED!
Nance and Sheed have identical pace adjusted rebounding numbers. The difference is who they were paired with. All told, Nance wasn't a top flight rebounder either. Offensively he scored more with a higher TS%, and defensively he was better than Sheed... although Wallace is admittedly a better post defender. And you are accounting for Nance's decline, we haven't seen Sheed's yet.

I think this is an argument for Nance going to late more than Sheed going too early though.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:16 PM   #3367
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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sheed can stretch the floor (wtf at people complaining about his 3s, he shoots a lot of open ones and he makes them at >33%) w
They're not "bad", per se, but 35% is very average. Doesn't warrant roaming the perimeter half the game jacking 4 or 5 a game if you got the potential to be a 55% post scorer who can draw fouls, open up an inside out game, grab some O boards, etc.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:16 PM   #3368
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by .Alex. View Post
I think it's interesting that Sheed, widely regarded as the best player of the famed Pistons starting five, went behind Billups and Ben, widely regarded as the worst player.
billups is certainly better.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:18 PM   #3369
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Any time that a power forward needs to be guarded at the perimeter, that really helps things along. I've been looking at stats no doubt, but I don't say "player x > player y because of his stats" i think "player x > player y because of what he brings to that team, and a lot of times stats help measure that, but other times they don't."

Think of it like this, everyone loved the Kemp and Hill pick. You put Dirk on my team instead of Kemp, I don't think it's good, just because it's becomes a little limited in how the offense needs to be run and Dirk's value is depreciated (also because of the defensive end). Dirk's still as good a player (according to Assani better (in 2006-2007 he was), it's just how to get the most out of your players.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:20 PM   #3370
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The Nance vs. Sheed thing.. based on Rb%, they're nearly identical. In fact, on the defensive glass they pretty much are, but on the Oglass Nance is ~3% better which gives him the boost in overall.. hmm wonder why.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:21 PM   #3371
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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They're not "bad", per se, but 35% is very average. Doesn't warrant roaming the perimeter half the game jacking 4 or 5 a game if you got the potential to be a 55% post scorer who can draw fouls, open up an inside out game, grab some O boards, etc.
I think in this sort of format having a guy like Sheed who can stretch the floor (particularly when your PG is GP) and who can also post up is really helpful. He may disappear at times, but in this sort of format you are likely to end up with a bunch of other guys who can score in bunches. Having this much elite D early on also gives you a lot of flexibility later in the draft to go after someone that is an elite scorer/shooter, even if they aren't a great defender (don't wanna name names but there are a lot of great options).
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:21 PM   #3372
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by xorbie View Post
i was looking at this thread last night and thinking sheed would be good value anywhere he went but that he would absolutely own with payton. top five pick thus far, i think.

sheed can stretch the floor (wtf at people complaining about his 3s, he shoots a lot of open ones and he makes them at >33%) which payton couldn't really, and this also helps since payton was an excellent post player himself.
33% isn't really the "break even point" for 3s, but 35% for the last few years is okay. The problem is he's a really good post player. When he's not taking 3s he's taking low percentage jump shots, not getting to the free throw line, and he's not getting any offensive rebounds.

Even though his 3p shooting has improved a lot in the last few years, his efficiency is going down and so is his orb%.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:21 PM   #3373
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by van_exel_fan View Post
What about the Mailman? He is WAAAYYYYYYYYY better than Kemp. Kemp is/was highly overrated. Don't let all the youtube vids fool ya...
And McHale...I think McHale was the 2nd best scorer out of PF/C in this entire draft.

1. Shaq
2. McHale
3. Barkley

Don't want to get into this argument (not interested in writing up a bunch if everyone agrees) but if someone wants to actually debate Barkley (or any other bigman) was better on offense let me know, the only thing Barkley had on McHale was longevity and that won't matter much in this league because McHale's foot injury was a freak accident/he didn't let it heal properly.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:21 PM   #3374
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by NozeCandy View Post
I've been dropping subtle hints about Manu for a long time now. Absolutely love him as a player. His PER has improved every single year and his advanced metrics this year were mostly all time highs for him. The writeup didn't even mention that he has been totally injury-free and is the most efficient player in the league in the closing minutes of close games (yes, even over Kobe), which some would call "clutch" but I'm not going down that road. Bill Simmons published some stats that he found from another site about that, but I don't feel like going back through his articles. He's also a sick free-throw shooter; him and Nash combined in that area is just ridiculous.

Oh, and sorry about Sheed KC, I know you wanted him
I was really hoping to get Manu somewhere in the 3rd, which I now realize was a pipe dream.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:21 PM   #3375
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Wow, didn't even think about his first pick. Yeah very nice. I too have thought about pairing another big with Duncan, but doesn't look like theres gonna be tons left.
Eh, I think there will be a decent amount of good ones left. I can think of two right off hand that I think would work well with Duncan.
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