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Old 05-16-2008, 06:52 PM   #3326
Seadood228
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
I probably have the biggest man crush on Sheed and would have likely reached for him just for the SHEEED factor, but kbfc def overrates him. He'd be a stretch anywhere in the 20-30 range.

You're getting a little too Charles Barkley in your analysis.
Absolutely. Offensively he's below average for his position amongst the elites, and defensively he's quite good. His rebounding percentages are pretty bad for his position. Nance is a quite a bit better in both categories, but he went way too late.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:52 PM   #3327
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

rashweed is one of my favorite players, but i was worried about the fact that the time he was a good/very good scorer wasn't the same time he was a good/very good defender. also the fact that he's a nutjob and the league drug tests harder now rather than 10 yrs ago.

i definitely like the pick though. does anyone know what that **** on the back of his head is?
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:53 PM   #3328
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Sheed pick is very, very good.
He is one of the player who benefit the most from this format in my opinion. Give you solid post defense and scoring which his great at this point.
At 24, Sheed got 4.9 rebounds per game. In 29 minutes.

At his best you're going to get a 19/8 guy with average efficiency and good post defense. Most of the time you're gonna get a 16/7 guy. He's not the offensive force everyone thinks he is, and he's likely going to be the worst rebounding starting 4 in the league.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:54 PM   #3329
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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We hear this **** about Manu all the time, usually the other way around (isn't Manu just schooling 2nd units).. wtf he plays 30 mins a night not 15. Plus his starter numbers are generally better, which is consistent with the data on most players.
No cause when Manu is on the floor with the starters, the best defensive player at the SG/SF plays him.

When Manu is on the floor with the starters, I assume he takes the worst offensive player with Bowen or Finley taking the best. Or am I off on this?
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:54 PM   #3330
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I think all the love for Manu is much much more justified than the love for Sheed.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:54 PM   #3331
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

other people's bad choices doesn't really mean player X at position Y is good, though.

My biggest qualm with Sheed is his love affair with the 3. It's a huge detriment to his game considering he's one of the best post players in the NBA currently. His baseline turnaround is just about unstoppable, and given that he's also one of the smartest guys in the league, he'd constantly be making correct decisions down there. The 3s he takes are usually good decisions, but he shouldnt have that many opportunities.

Probably a key factor in his rather mediocre rebounding stats as well.

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Ginobili pick is just LOL bad. Any idea how many players like him will be left in the 5th round?
lol. OK guy.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:56 PM   #3332
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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In his peak, Kemp was as good as any of those guys IMO (except Timmy and KG.) As good as Dirk, Barkley and McHale IMO. D12 is a center, not sure why you listed him. Also, for my team, there's no way that any of those guys except Timmy and KG are better fits.
No way on earth that Kemp was as god as Barkley in his prime. Look at it any way you want:

Barkley's career highs:
PPG: 28.3(87-88)
RPG: 14.6(86-97)
APG: 5.1(92-93)
TS%: 66.5(87-88)

Kemp's career highs:
PPG: 20.5(98-99)
RPG: 11.4(95-96)
APG: 2.6(93-94)
TS%: 63.1(95-96)


Barkley was insanely efficient even as a bulk scorer. He led the league in TS% 4 years in a row, all of which were higher than Kemp's career high of 63.1%. During those 4 years Barkley's PPG were 23.0, 28.3, 25.8, and 25.2, all of which are also better than Kemp's career high. He also dominates Kemp in rebounds and assists.

Kemp has 3 ALL NBA 2nd Teams.
Barkley has 5 ALL NBA 1st Teams, 5 2nd Teams, and one 3rd Team.

Kemp never finished higher than #7 in MVP voting.
Barkley won MVP once, finished 2nd once, finished 4th twice, and finished 6th four times.

Barkley's career PER is 24.6. Kemp's highest single season PER is 23.6 in 98-99.


I could go on and on, but really whats the point? Its not even close. I don't think Kemp was as good as Dirk or McHale either, but Barkley was the obvious disagreement that I had with your statement so I'll just focus on that one for now.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:56 PM   #3333
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think all the love for Manu is much much more justified than the love for Sheed.
wat
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:57 PM   #3334
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ginobili pick is just LOL bad. Any idea how many players like him will be left in the 5th round?
i think youre trying to hard now.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:58 PM   #3335
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think all the love for Manu is much much more justified than the love for Sheed.
Yeah. I really like sheed and think he's the tits with payton. But he went about right if not to early, and saying he went 20 spots to late with Larry Nance and others on the board is a major leak.

Also Bynum... ok if that's the case then I can name another physical freak who had similar numbers for half a season before getting hurt, and he did it without Kobe getting him all of the great looks.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:59 PM   #3336
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Manu is legitimately a top 5 SG in the draft and probably a borderline top 10 wing player.

Sheed is what? the 20th best big man taken?
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:00 PM   #3337
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I officially hate you. I thought I had that memory erased.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:01 PM   #3338
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How have none of my 3 been picked yet wtf.

Hate the Bynum pick.
Manu+Nash Head could develop interestingly.
Sheed+GP is scary. You do get the fun Sheed extreme head case years too.

Someone stop this awful traffic. What an awful ride to DC this is.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:02 PM   #3339
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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As far as injuries go, I consider someone like Paul or Deron to be as likely (and no more so) to get as injured as Hill or anyone else who suffered what I consider to be a freak injury. IMO people are still overrating the Hill injury. With today's medical advancements (think what would've happened to Amare had he suffered that injury a decade ago), I think Hill would've been fresh a year later. And if you don't think that injury hampered his career production, you're nuts. IMO I'm looking at a top player in the league for a solid decade.
-Someone earlier posted a scouting report out of college saying that Hill was injury prone. Deron has never ever been mentioned as injury prone.

-In his first season he missed three times as many games as Deron has missed through 3 seasons

-Hill never ever played a full 82 game season. Deron has done it already in just 3 years.

-Hill then went on to be injured, which was not a huge surprise giving his scouting report. Deron has never been injured.

-Hill is 6-8 225. Deron is 6-3 210. Hill's body type is alot more to be injured than Deron's imo.

-Hill plays a much more physical style than Deron. Just look at how many more FT attempts he takes than Deron. All those times you drive and get fouled are potential injuries.


I consider Hill way way more likely to be injured than Deron Williams, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:02 PM   #3340
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
This is why I don't always like defensive rating stats, as I will confess I don't watch many Spurs games, but isn't Manu guarding bench players/the non best sg/sf a ton (Bowen guards the elite ones, maybe even Finley does sometimes too? (Not sure on the Finley part)).

I'm not saying Manu's defense isn't good, but it def isn't close to as good as stats indicate, unless someone wants to prove me wrong.
I'll be glad to prove you right.
Sorry for dropping a player's name but I 'm not discussing him as a possible pick, so no harm done.
Bruce Bowen vs Manu Ginobili, last five years:
Drtg: 101,6 vs 97,4
DWS: 13,8 vs 11,9

As you see those two stats that have been used a lot in this thread gives a very clear edge to Bowen defensively, which is pretty ridiculous. So, we should be more careful with those weird stats IMO.
Ginobili is definitely above average. He gambles a lot though and he's allowed to do that thanks to Bowen locking up players and Duncan covering tht lane.
He's nowhere close to being elite and paired with Steve Nash you're not stoping a lot right now.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:03 PM   #3341
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by kidcolin View Post
other people's bad choices doesn't really mean player X at position Y is good, though.
I know. Comparing him to other bad choices was more of a rhetorical thing. I haven't exactly mocked up the entire draft, as I'm not drafting, so it's just an easy way to pick out some targets.

I just randomly clicked about half of Sheed's seasons on b-ref and didn't find a single one where his team's pace was 90+. I'm going to assume that this carries over to his entire career, and if I'm wrong, it's probably just barely. Larry Nance at his peak got 8 boards/game with 15-20% more chances to do so. SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEED!
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:03 PM   #3342
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

BTW, Bynum really is LOL bad. And by LOL bad, I mean, at least 2 rounds too early, if not more.

People really just have no idea how common it is for guys to have downturns, and how rare it is to carry a peak for a prolonged period. People will start to understand as the draft progresses though.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:03 PM   #3343
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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11 picks yesterday, 0 today so far, wtf.
LOL, we're spoiled now.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:04 PM   #3344
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I officially hate you. I thought I had that memory erased.
huh
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:04 PM   #3345
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The amount of Sheed bashing that goes on makes me question whether or not any of you have ever played the game or just look at stats. He's the sort of raindrop that really raises the ocean if you know what I mean.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:04 PM   #3346
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by horizon View Post
I'll be glad to prove you right.
Sorry for dropping a player's name but I 'm not discussing him as a possible pick, so no harm done.
Bruce Bowen vs Manu Ginobili, last five years:
Drtg: 101,6 vs 97,4
DWS: 13,8 vs 11,9

As you see those two stats that have been used a lot in this thread gives a very clear edge to Bowen defensively, which is pretty ridiculous. So, we should be more careful with those weird stats IMO.
Ginobili is definitely above average. He gambles a lot though and he's allowed to do that thanks to Bowen locking up players and Duncan covering tht lane.
He's nowhere close to being elite and paired with Steve Nash you're not stoping a lot right now.
ty
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:04 PM   #3347
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by EPiPeN11 View Post
wow Bynum was def not expectin him to go this early and LOL at not trading with Clark, you coulda easily gotten Bynum 10+ spots later and gotten extra draft picks.
+1

Bynum wasn't even on my radar. You're getting him right now too, so hes clearly a huge injury concern. All of the setbacks regarding him coming back this year have to be troublesome.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:06 PM   #3348
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Originally Posted by BobboFitos View Post
yah it's a great tool.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=duncati01

the one defender who did pretty well against shaq has been tim duncan. (not surprising) limiting shaq over 27 games to 23.2/11.2 (while putting up 22/12.1) means they essentially canceled each other out.

its funny, there is a laundry list of guys shaq just demolished tho...
shaq vs ewing http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01
shaq vs admiral
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01
You know I'm bringing up this quote of yours if our teams ever match up.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:07 PM   #3349
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I missed the Kemp vs. Barkley claims earlier, but Assani took care of that. There was no comparison between the two, Shawn Kemp was a player that started out hot, but his peak was early and he never became dominant player that everyone thought he'd be, even before his troubles.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:07 PM   #3350
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

tbach and others basically sound like they're angling to all but eliminate injury concerns.

"With today's medical advancements" Bynum is still totally f'ed up. Hill busted his ankle in '99 dude not '79.
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