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Old 05-15-2008, 11:04 PM   #2951
DontRaisePlz
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Gut says to hate the Ben Wallace pick but I had to compare him to Dennis Rodman to see for sure. Lesser rebounder and manages to be .072 points lower in TS%. At least Rodman shoots free throws well enough not be hacked in end game.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:04 PM   #2952
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Deron is actually about the point where picking young goes from defensable to borderline and almost bad. You're basically picking a guy who at age 23 has had one season that would put him at the level of being picked even in this vicinity, over players with much better track records. Is there a decent chance Deron will improve or at least stay at this level? yes. But there is also a decent chance that he could end up like a certain PG who had an even better season than Deron at age 23, but would prob get met by a lot of lols if he were drafted here.
I agree with this. Deron's a decent pick, but I don't think he was such a no-brainer. It is very easy to assume he will keep improving, but most 23 year-olds who play at an all-star level are already preaty close to their peak. If you look at guards who have Deron's numbers at 23, a far greater % of them plateau at that level, have injuries, or decline than continue to progress into all-NBA caliber players. I think the praise this pick has gotten is heavily infuenced by the fact that Williams just had a couple good years. This reasoning obviously applies to Paul too, but he really has had a season that is historically amazing, Williams was merely pretty good.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:04 PM   #2953
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

To win it all without an elite post defender has been almost impossible in the NBA, I can't remember a team that hasn't had one and won an NBA title.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:04 PM   #2954
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I think Deron was BPA a solid 5-10 picks ago. I have no ****ing clue why Epip traded up to get Billups instead of Deron. And he even knew Deron was better but tried to make some system BS argument
Billups defense >>>>> Deron

Slight edge to Billups in shooting also.

The ball will be going through McHale most of the time on my team, I need players who can play off the ball well.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:05 PM   #2955
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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TD,

same high school or high school together? stories plz?
He was a freshman when I was a senior. I actually knew Bracey Wright, also a freshman (Timberwolves) much better at the time. The reason we are/more like were now acquaintances is because his wife (baby's momma for the longest time) was the sister of a childhood and long time friend of mine. He was around a lot before he became busy with that NBA stuff.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:06 PM   #2956
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I don't think Deron's going to improve, but is it gonna matter? how many guys at pg give you a .600 ts% and lots of assists? there aren't many. even if he declines a bit he's still a really good player and you're looking at like the 50th pick.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:06 PM   #2957
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Well I get 8 more picks, don't I?

I mean, offense is aplenty, imo, defense is not. Especially elite post defense. There ain't a lot of that to go around.
Ben Wallace is A LOT better at being a help defender than at post defense. There are a good amount of guys in this draft who are better man to man post defenders than Wallace.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:06 PM   #2958
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I agree with this. Deron's a decent pick, but I don't think he was such a no-brainer. It is very easy to assume he will keep improving, but most 23 year-olds who play at an all-star level are already preaty close to their peak. If you look at guards who have Deron's numbers at 23, a far greater % of them plateau at that level, have injuries, or decline than continue to progress into all-NBA caliber players. I think the praise this pick has gotten is heavily infuenced by the fact that Williams just had a couple good years. This reasoning obviously applies to Paul too, but he really has had a season that is historically amazing, Williams was merely pretty good.
So there's a chance he'll suck but also theres a chance he could lock up the all-nba spot at guard for a while. That's what you get. You do realize guys like Duncan, KG, etc. are not much better than they were at 23/24 they just maintained being that good. So guy picking Deron even if he did stay as good as he was now and never got better would be a really good pick.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:07 PM   #2959
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

The fact that Wallace is a good guy to pair with Iverson is exactly why I don't like Iverson.

D
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:11 PM   #2960
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I don't think Deron's going to improve, but is it gonna matter? how many guys at pg give you a .600 ts% and lots of assists? there aren't many. even if he declines a bit he's still a really good player and you're looking at like the 50th pick.
Yea but if you think about it, if we had this draft immediately following the '06 Finals, Dwayne Wade would have gone right where Chris Paul went in this draft (if not closer to LeBron). The guy who picked D-Wade would argue to the death that Wade would never decline and keep saying "did you see the Finals?". Now in this draft (2 years later) he went 25th and he may wind up like the first amazing guard who ever played with Shaq...

Why can't D-Will, Chris Bosh, CP3, even LBJ wind up like Wade or worse?
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:12 PM   #2961
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Ben Wallace is A LOT better at being a help defender than at post defense. There are a good amount of guys in this draft who are better man to man post defenders than Wallace.
I always considered help defense "post defense" in that the center or PF or big man is an anchor in the post, protecting the rim. IMO, the best low post guys won't be stopped by the best low post defenders, they will be double teamed. This is why Kwame Brown (known for good man defense and sluggish help defense) still sucks at D.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:12 PM   #2962
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Yea but if you think about it, if we had this draft immediately following the '06 Finals, Dwayne Wade would have gone right where Chris Paul went in this draft (if not closer to LeBron). The guy who picked D-Wade would argue to the death that Wade would never decline and keep saying "did you see the Finals?". Now in this draft (2 years later) he went 25th and he may wind up like the first amazing guard who ever played with Shaq...

Why can't D-Will, Chris Bosh, CP3, even LBJ wind up like Wade or worse?
It's called a gamble. Any player current in the first couple of years and picked is a gamble.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:13 PM   #2963
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

About time Deron got picked. He's not the player I've been referring to, but I have received numerous PMs and even phone calls about him, lol....

As for Ben Wallace, fanmail now has my vote for worst pick of both the 1st and 2nd rounds. The funny part about it is that they almost kinda maybe work together. I could definitely see this team scrapping through an atrocious Eastern Conference only to get raped by a real team.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:13 PM   #2964
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

I like the Wallace pick, was planning on taking him if he fell to me, with TMac filling the high usage scorer role. I think it's easier to find complementary scoring in the later rounds than great defenders. Was also hoping for Deron, second straight round that happened with Pippen and Payton getting taken right before.

Quote:
Cons: short peak and at an odd time period, got owned at times by the top Centers in the league aka Shaq
Was there anyone in the history of the league who wouldn't get owned by Shaq?

Last edited by Dudd; 05-15-2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Although since this is a popular vote and everyone else hates it, I guess it's for the best
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:15 PM   #2965
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

you and bobbo are so gay for each other
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:16 PM   #2966
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Was there anyone in the history of the league who wouldn't get owned by Shaq?
cue epipen to say "mchale"
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:17 PM   #2967
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Wallace never had to play against David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Pat Ewing. He would get pwned by any of them. Shaq was the only great center during Wallace's prime and Shaq pwned him too. Wallace may just be the beneficiary of a weak time for centers in the NBA...
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:17 PM   #2968
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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I always considered help defense "post defense" in that the center or PF or big man is an anchor in the post, protecting the rim. IMO, the best low post guys won't be stopped by the best low post defenders, they will be double teamed. This is why Kwame Brown (known for good man defense and sluggish help defense) still sucks at D.
help defense does not equal post defense. help defense is help defense, post defense is 1v1 on ur man guarding him.

help defense wallace is one of, if not the best in this draft.

post defense (actually being able to guard ur man 1v1), wallace isn't even in the top 20. I agree that the elite scorers will need double teams most of the time, but there are a decent amount of post defenders who can somewhat slow down a bunch of the elite bigmen.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:18 PM   #2969
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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cue epipen to say "mchale"
Did you even see what I said about shaq v mchale? You didn't respond to the last comment where I already admited (and never said) that shaq wasn't better than McHale in the post.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:20 PM   #2970
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Deron was a great pick (and the fact CP3 was picked 33 or so spots higher is telling of that pick imo), don't like the Ben Wallace pick at all.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:21 PM   #2971
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

Honestly with so many teams having elite centers that at least approach the level of Shaq, trading for straight up D with absolutely zero offense to back it up seems like a spew there.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:24 PM   #2972
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Did you even see what I said about shaq v mchale? You didn't respond to the last comment where I already admited (and never said) that shaq wasn't better than McHale in the post.
step back, relax, chuckle, etc.

the question was, "could anyone guard shaq," not "does anyone have a similar offensive game to shaq"
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:26 PM   #2973
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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Honestly with so many teams having elite centers that at least approach the level of Shaq, trading for straight up D with absolutely zero offense to back it up seems like a spew there.
So many how many elite centers are there? I don't think there are that many, and in comparison to PF/Swing there aren't many at all.
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:26 PM   #2974
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

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step back, relax, chuckle, etc.

the question was, "could anyone guard shaq," not "does anyone have a similar offensive game to shaq"
ok just saying I never said that McHale could guard Shaq either, heck no one can he is obv the best offensive post player ever, and the second best offensive post player ever is Kevin McHale
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:27 PM   #2975
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Re: Modern Era NBA Build a Franchise Draft Discussion

zero O is so bad for starters. Rodman and Ben are special exceptions, but Rodman gave you considerably more offense than Ben.
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