Also, I plan on posting links to hype our other players, since BC never did.

Baron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3XyzQvtlZ4

Also,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJYmxR86zhk

you KNOW what number 1 is! Assani, I'm lookin at you.

D

Yes of course, and that should be factored in as well.

I didn't watch many Twolves games, but I did watch all the Celtics games when Al blew up 2 years. A lot of times, his teammates ignored him for long stretches when they should have been feeding him the ball. Also say if Al missed 2 straight buckets they would instantly go away from him for a long time, instead of sticking with their clearly best offensive threat (Pierce was hurt). Heck it got so bad sometimes Doc had to demand that the team feed Al the ball in the post during timeouts. I have a strong feeling in Minny with a lot of young teammates like he had in Boston, it was the same way.

Meanwhile I don't watch many Magic games, but when they play the Celtics it seems like they run the pick and roll play like 90% of the time (this isn't even an exageration).

Ok but that's kinda misleading, since say if he improves the ppg one by a drastic margin (not saying he will) but every other stat stayed the same, he would have improved a lot, yet only "improved" in 1 catagory. Infact i'd take Deng scoring 35 ppg (obv will never happen, just hypothetical) with the exact same stats across the board, than him slightly improving in every catagory.

I disagree with Cowboy.

Cowboy has 3 very good/elite defenders, Payton, Rasheed, and Chandler. Then he has 3 average defenders in LJ, Nick Anderson, and Walker.

I think Rasheed/Chandler are better on defense than McHale and Perkins but it's very close and I could honestly see myself on a different day siding towards McHale/Perkins over Sheed/Chandler. I also think Payton is better than Billups. But Raja+Deng+Martin is a pretty massive edge over LJ+Nick Anderson and Walker imo.

As for sergz, I will conceed his team is better on D than mine, but it's very close. And while I think I am now in the top 5 instead of top 4, I think the gap between me and the best defensive team in this league is pretty small.

I also think you and others are drastically undervaluing wing defenders, no way the Spurs are even close to the defensive team that they have been without Bowen, no way the Bulls are even close to the defensive team they were without Jordan or Pippen, no way the Pistons are close to the defensive team they were without Prince, Rockets without Battier etc.


I said it already was the least important (never said otherwise). However it is still very important, teams with very good/great PG defenders are a good sized better than if they didn't have them. Players like Payton, Kidd, Billups, Harris etc. improve their teams defense by a very good amount when they are in the game. There are even more elite PG's in this league than in the real NBA, so PG defense is even more important.



I don't think nearly as important, but if I was rating post/help defense (you also forgot pick and roll D for a bigman which is just as important as the 2 you listed above, heck in the real NBA it might be the MOST important out of those 3 since most teams run the pick and roll as their main play) i'd rate bigman D a 10, Wing D an 8, and PG D a 6.5 for the NBA, however for this league i'd rank it bigman D 10, Wing D 8.5, and PG D 7.5 due to there being so many more elite Wing/PG players than in the NBA.

You have Ben Wallace too high, his post D is a lot worse than his help D. Peja was obv a joke. Regardless i'd move Hakeem up to 3, put Ben at 4, I also think KG should be behind Mourning, Ewing (who should both be ahead of Rodman as well imo) and possibly Rodman too although i'd prob take KG over Rodman. The funny thing is the difference between #10 and #1 on that list isn't even that large.

Pick and Roll offense Dwight >>>> Big Al and the pick and roll is by far the most common play in the NBA (and most effective)

Who cares if he gets a ton of points from the pick and roll? He shoots at a high efficiency with a high usage, I don't care if he does it by exclusively shooting half court sky hooks, it's all worth the same. His point guard is currently undrafted, so it's not like you can even make the argument that it's his point guard that's making him good, ala Nash/Amare. His turnovers are a problem that aren't captured by efficiency and usage, so if you want to attack something, attack that, but saying that you have to factor in the times that he doesn't shoot on the pick and roll (we do, it's called usage rate) or making up another hypothetical argument (if only his teammates would pass him the ball more, he'd have a 50% usage and a high efficiency!), sorry, that's not going to work.

Although I agree with this entirely, so maybe I'm misinterpreting your earlier post.

Hardaway >>>>> Undrafted PGs who feed D12

Both Dudd/Cap yes his PG is undrafted, and yes I didn't watch many Magic games, but I am pretty sure Hedo runs the pick and roll play with Howard more than their PG does.

Regardless I agree he will obv be more effective here than on the Magic.

I was a little surprised with his stats as well, tbh. Very comprable stats to Z. Ilgauskas. The thing about Benjamin that I found pleasantly surprising was that he has very good blk numbers and is not a foul machine. Career of 3.8 fouls per 36 mins is Top 20 for centers in this draft. His TOV% is not v good at all, but he will have the lowest usage % on our team, so I don't think it will be too big of an issue. His AST% is also decent for a center, so he's not a black hole on offense either.

D

assani,

that's EXACTLY what i did and explained earlier, even though it then overrates Dwight's shot attempts. So read the whole thread carefully and stop being an asshat.

And I never said anything about Dwight being a better offensive rebounder. I'm just stating a clear fact: a large part of Dwight's value comes from his impressive offensive rebound rate. A large part of why TS% overrates him is because he turns it over like mad.

Anyone who watched a lot of ball in early to mid 90s want to give feedback on one player I see still available?

Sure, PM me.

I'll just do one write up.

With a core of Bosh, Worthy and Davis, this team has three very athletic players who all force a high number of turnovers for their position and all can run the court, pass fairly well for their position and finish well at the basket. It's pretty clear that this lends itself to a much better version of the modern day GSW. Reggie Lewis adds another dynamic scorer who will fit in well with this team because he was also an excellent harassing defender who could finish at the basket on the other end. At this point, the only things lacking on this team are a legitimate 3pt shooter and a true Center, the lack of which we have seen really hurts the GSW in certain match ups and is something you especially can't get away with in this league. David Wesley and Benoit Benjamin address these needs and bring exactly what we need to the table. I'll give a quick summary of each player and then talk about how they fit into our team.

David Wesley is a good defensive PG who got a lot of steals at his peak. For the years we are looking at (our team's window is basically 24-32, since Worthy and Benoit are done around then, and obviously Reggie Lewis has passed on by now), he's getting 1.5+ per game. He was a good but not great 3pt shooter (his early years that are very high are when the 3pt line was moved in, so it's fair to say he's going to be ~.360 in this league). He was never a very efficient scorer, but he was not a chucker either and was simply on a lot of bad to middling offensive teams. On this team he will be the 4th option on offense and primarily a 3pt shooter who can penetrate as well if the defense is out of position. He was always pretty good at getting to the line for a PG although his FT shooting of .78 is a little disappointing. Wesley also turns the ball over a little much, but maintained >2:1 assists:TO ratio so he wasn't terrible. I feel that on this team Wesley will be a lot more efficient and about as productive as he was in real life, and that's not something I argue for everyone (Baron and Stack will probably be about as inefficient).

Benoit Benjamin was a big dude in the middle. Unfortunately we miss his 21-23 seasons in which he average 2.6, 2.6 and 3.4 blocks/game. Thankfully, at 24 he still average 2.8, and at 25, he got 2.6! After that he falls off, missing almost the entire age 28 season. Of course we can't know how things will play out in this league, but it's safe to say he will probably miss large chunks of time here or there but will generally stay pretty healthy. He came back for his age 29 season and played a good number of games through his age 31 season, after which he was basically done. Besides his shot blocking, Benoit brings a big body in the middle who can rebound pretty well (his DRB% is consistently 23+ and he was #19 of all time, and #64 over all rebounding) and also scores somewhat efficiently when given the ball since he was a good FT shooter for his size and had a bit of touch.

Now on to how the team fits at this point. At this point our team is prepared to run two different starting line ups out there:

David Wesley
Baron Davis
Reggie Lewis
James Worthy
Chris Bosh

This is the run and run and run and gun line up. I know, I know, Wesley and Davis don't play that well together. But I think it works well on this team, much like the backcourt of Baron and Monta that GS runs. Worthy played a lot like a PF and at 6'9"/225 he's big enough to hang with most of the PF in this league and presents a big match up problem on the other side because he was quick in the post and could also take guys off the dribble. Baron Davis is strong and big enough to cover most SG. Lewis is tall and long and can play either the 3 or 2.

More importantly, everyone on this line up averages 1+ steal per game, and our two guards average 4+ together. At 3-5 we also get 1+ blocks/game from everyone. This team will be forcing a lot of TO and then will get running. Wesley and Baron are both capable of running the break with the ball in their hands, and everyone on this line up can run, pass and finish. This will be the best fast break team in the league, and we plan on getting into that fast break early and often. In the half court game, we get good floor spacing. Whoever our coach is will hopefully tell Baron to shoot less 3s and give that role to Wesley. Bosh and Worthy can both play well in the post but both can also pick up the ball on the wing and blow by their guy so there will be no problem cluttering the lane. This leaves room for Reggie Lewis, Baron Davis and David Wesley to take their guy off the dribble. Again, everyone on this team can pass and are high IQ players who can see the floor well, so we are going to get a lot of easy buckets even in the half court game. Defensively we will be below average but force a lot of TO and can hang somewhat with some teams.

Our other line up will be:

David Wesley
Jerry Stackhouse
Reggie Lewis/Worthy
Chris Bosh/Backup PF
Benoit Benjamin

This is a line up we will play for 15-25 minutes per game, depending on match up (which is about how long Benoit will play, since we don't want him when we have our runners out there, Stack will probably get minutes with the other line up). This line up is more like the modern day Dallas Mavericks. Obviously Bosh is no Dirk, but he can stretch the floor, and everyone else can create their own shot well enough (besides Benoit). Stack is going to be Stack, but I (or the coach) is going to instruct him to really only shoot so much when Bosh and Worthy are off the court, and then him and Reggie Lewis are going to be our primary offense so it's not as horrible to get such ineffective offense for short stretches.

The real strength and purpose of this line up is simply to grind out some minutes and play good defense. At all positions except the 2, this team average to good defense (I know Lewis/Worthy stats don't look good but DRtg sucks, these guys will be able to play swarming, gambling D that they are both good for), and with Bosh and Benoit inside it will be very tough for other teams to get much going inside at all (and whoever our backup PF is he will need to be able to play D and block shots). Lewis and Worthy both bring a lot of length and the ability to get steals and blocks from the 3 spot, and even Stack can occasionally get a steal and isn't a Peja on defense. This team rebounds very well defensively, still forces a high number of turnovers, blocks shots and plays reasonable 1v1 defense. The offense won't be as flashy, as effective or as efficient but we still have two playmakers on the court at all times and people at various positions who can space the floor pretty well so that the 1on1 players have room to operate. Benoit will function primarily as a guy who just sets screens for Reggie Lewis/Stackhouse to run through and then rolls to the basket.

Who would you rank Shaq over? Isn't his pick n roll defense pretty damn bad? I did think about him though, and as I said, I don't feel very confident and these were just off the top of my head. So make an argument and I'll listen.


BTW just woke up and saw your text...gotta go play WSOP so no basketball for me today.

I didn't cherry pick though. We get the players at age 24. Thats the rule. And I was comparing Alex's team to this year's Magic team. I didn't cherry pick his age 28 season...its just the only season he was with the Magic.

along with only scoring 17/game and having 3.9 TO/game. and also, you CANNOT use big al's stats previous to the 2nd half last year because doc never played him (IMO this is where most of my doc hatred came from, because celtics fans knew he was special after he torched jermaine oneal in a playoff game (doesn't really show in the bball-ref since doc benched him for the rest of that series..).

fwiw, i agree with epipen's post. dwight's offensive stats can look better if he's on the right team, but big al put up 22 on 53.5 TS% while only turning it over 2x per game on the 4th worst offensive team in the league. that's damn impressive and if you don't think those numbers would be way higher on orlando, then you're nuts.

Damn xorbie, I was going to help! Good writeup, yo.

I think BigCat did ok through round 3, but then the wheels come off with Stack, and to a lesser extent, Lewis.

We could of had a lineup of:

Davis
raja bell
worthy
ac green
bosh

Which I think would be much better.

Haha....I just started watching it, but yeah I'm sure of what it is already.

I like it simply because I love Nashua, and I think this team might be one of the best offensively in our league. Defensively, it's going to be below average though.

lolz

let us know how that goes

You really think there's any coach (Mike Woodsons of the world aside) who doesn't try to get their chuckers to stop chucking? I mean, I guess there are some, but with as many coaches as Stack's had, and him still doing the same ****, I'd say WYSIWYG.

'Cardo,

I agree somewhat. That's why everyone else on the team will be instructed not to pass to Stack, and Stack will be limited to 20 minutes per game. Even less when Lewis is still alive since Baron is going to take some of the minutes at the 2 and Lewis will as well, with Worthy at the 3.

I'd prefer Anthony Mason coming off the bench as a halfcourt specialist for this team. I guess that leaves us with Rogers starting? That's probably fine, right?

Keeps gettin' worse! Jerry gon' be pissed / will probably chuck even harder when he does get the rock out of pure spite. Plus this ****s up your ball movement something awful. This is really gonna hurt your offense more than if you'd just let Jerry Jerry it up.

Nowwwww you're talkin'.