BiigChips and BigCat are annoying as hell...BigCat begged to be added onto this draft and all he has done is help delay this thread everytime. Plus - has any of these two guys ever put up any kindve paragraph explaianing their picks???

Instead of NoPairParker, let's skip BigCat.

+1

o wait...

I agree. This is a joke that bigcat never explains his pick/not on time/etc. NPP actually makes solid picks etc.

SKIP BIG CAT +1

Add another one who wants to skip BIG CAT.

+1 Skip him, let him make up the pick at the end of the draft if he wants. We were on such a roll prior.

+1. I've got another face-melter to unleash.

+1 to skip

I vote let someone adopt the team and finish for him.

concur

First I wanna say I apoligize for acting like a douchebag sometimes during this thread. While I still don't think I was wrong in any of my arguments, I def handled them poorly, for that I am sorry.

I also wanna say my team is def being very underrated/overlooked because a ton of you guys hate me and have a personal bias against me and I realize I brought that upon myself.

Regardless... other things I think are being overlooked in this are that having BOTH an elite defense and an elite offense as well as floor spacing (mainly 3pt shooting but midranges shots are fine as long as you only have a few of them) are the key aspects being overlooked imo.

Horizon said defense is overrated and I could not disagree more, it is just as important in this league as offense (and even more inmport than offense the regular NBA). But he is right, if you have the best defense and you have an average/below average offense, you won't win it all in this league. However if you have the best offense, yet have an average/below average defense, you won't win it all either. What you need is BOTH a very good/elite offense and a very good/elite defense and I feel only a few teams have that.

So removing all my bias...Teams that I feel have a very good/elite offense and defense besides me are:

Steroid Boy's team:

Jordan, Camby, Josh Smith, Jason Terry, Juwan Howard, Joe Smith.... I don't think either his offense or defense is elite but they are both very good (offense is really only very good cause of Jordan but he has very little offensive help around him which is a problem). Defense is very good yet not elite imo because they really don't have a great post defender (Camby is a lot better at help defense and kinda gets killed by very good/elite bigmen).

Horizon:

Lebron, Grant, Petrovic, Okafor, Lever, Barros...I think this def is a very good defensive team. Lebron, Grant, Lever are very good if not great defenders. Okafor is pretty good although overrated imo. The rest aren't great defenders but they aren't terrible either. There offensive is better than their defense but I don't know if I would call it elite because they will have both Grant/Okafor who need to play near the hoop which could be a problem especially since Lebron loves to drive. And if they start Lever their offense will def be even worse than very good as they will have 3 very bad shooters, and Lebron isn't a great 3pt shooter either.

I think starting Barros is a must and having Lever come off as a 6th man would be ideal. Lever and Lebron are both a lot more effective with the ball in their hands, so if you make sure Lever is on the court at all times when Lebron isn't, your offense will be a lot better. Drazen is lights out and I loved the pick (was considering him over Martin). He can play both off the ball and on the ball equally as well. Lebron is obv Lebron but he needs the ball in his hands to be most effective. I think if you had drafted a defensive PG who could hit the 3, ur team would possibly be top 3 in the league, I think drafting Fat really hurt ur team imo especially because now he is playing with Grant/Okafor who also can't shoot making it a lot easier to double Lebron/Petrovic.

Assani's team:

Duncan, Penny, AK47, Harper, McCray, Outlaw... I think his defense is def elite, one of the best if not the best in the entire league. However his offense while good, barely makes the very good list imo. Duncan and Penny are really their only 2 creators, and although they both are great at this, Penny will be a lot worse in 3 years. Also their floor spacing isn't that good at all, AK47 sucks off the ball, Harper can hit a 3 but it's not like hes amazing by any stretch, McCray apparently has a good midrange game? (don't know much about him), and Outlaw will be right near the hoop so while he won't be an offensive liability, he will make AK47 into one since AK47 has a bad jump shot. I realize you have Bo on ur bench, but I would def try to limit as much as possible the time AK47 and Bo are on the court together.

Jack of Arcades:

David Robinson, Terry Porter, Mark Aguirre, AC Green, McKey, Korver...I think this team is more balanced than the 2 above. I think both it's offense and defense are very good and possibly both elite although I don't think they are quite at the elite mark.

Seadood228

KG, Laimbeer, Hornacek, Mike Miller, Bobby Phills, Elden Campbell...I think this team is the best so far out of all I listed. It has an elite defense and a very good offense. KG/Laimbeer compliment themselves very well (KG was by far the most effective when he didn't have to guard the best PF/C like this year when Perk did that, and Laimbeer can do it as well). They have good wing defenders too minus Mike Miller, and Campbell is a very good defensive bigman off the bench. Their offense isn't quite as good, as I think KG's offense is overrated but still very good, but they really don't have an elite #2 option, which I think is a problem since KG is best when he doesn't have to create on offense all the time. Regardless they have very good floor spacing and players who can hit the 3.

Caponeo

Dwight Howard, Tim Hardaway, Andre Iguodala, Steve Smith Cliff Robinson, David Lee....I don't think this team has either an elite offense or defense but both are very good. On offense they really do lack a #1 option, as Dwight is def not that yet. Hardaway and Iggy can both be #1 options but they aren't really great at it. I don't think there floor spacing is amazing either, but at least a bunch of them can shoot the 3 even if it isn't really that high of a percentage. There defense I feel is better than there offense and is possibly elite although i'd say slightly worse. Howard is obv elite, Iggy is very good, Cliff is very good too. The rest aren't very good but aren't terrible either.

Clark

Ewing, Nance, Blaylock, Houston, Butler, Curry...I like this team the best although I think it's only slightly ahead of Seadood's. This defense is def elite, and like Assani's is one of, if not the best in the league. There offense I think is very good too and possibly elite also. Not much really needs to be said, this is a great team but I feel as if he hadn't gone with Mookie or Houston that early, this team would be even better as Ewing/Nance/Butler were all great picks.

Nicholasp27

Mourning, Buck Williams, Joe Johnson, JRich, Rondo, Harris...I think this team is a def elite defensive team. Mourning/Buck compliment each other really well (Mourning great help defender, Buck great man defender). Joe Johnson is a very underrated defender around here, JRich isn't amazing but he isn't terrible either, and Rondo/Harris are both very good/elite defenders. There offense I think barely makes very good though. They def don't have a great #1 option, and really only have like 3 #2 options (Johnson, Mourning, JRich) and neither of them are amazing offensive players but they are very good. There floor spacing is ok but they really only have 2 players who can shoot the 3 (Johnson/Jrich) and Rondo can't shoot at all and neither can Buck (def would never play these 2 together).

Sergsz

Mutombo, Arenas, Schrempf, Gay, Ruland, Bowen...I think this defense is very good and possibly elite just because of Mutombo and Bowen alone. However Arenas is not a great defender, Schrempf wasn't either, and neither is Ruland. Gay is pretty good though too with the potential to get better. Their offense is very good as well too, Arenas can score and hit the 3, Schrempf is a very good shooter, Bowen can hit a corner 3 so he isn't a liability on offense, and Gay can create/shoot the 3 as well. Ruland can also score, and Mutombo can just play near the hoop. I love their floor spacing which will open things up on offense.

If I was ranking the top 5 teams right now (not including my team) I would go...

1.Clark
2.Seadood
3.Jack of Arcades
4.Bobbo (this team barley missed the very good defensive cut, but I think it's offense is great because of Shaq/Eddie and floor spacing). I also feel like this team could have been much better had it made different picks after Shaq/Eddie (I thought this was the best 1/2 combo in the entire draft) which focused more on defensive players who could hit shots since you want the ball in Shaq's hands a ton of the time.
5.Sergz

I am surprised to not see any real dominate teams like I thought I would, I think almost all the teams with top 5-10 picks really blew a lot of opportunities along the way to put together dominate teams who could be both elite on offense and defense.

Thats the best idea imo. Someone that is reliable...like xorbie or someone

I very much disagree, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the debate. Since I'm probably the prototype for "defensive team" in this draft, I'm going to use my team as an example here.


Agreed. And the purpose of offense is to score as many times as possible, not to score every time because you cannot do it.



For what reason? The "reason" you gave above is a pretty horrible argument imo. Lets take a look at this past NBA season though:

Imo there were 4 great defenses: SA, Detroit, Houston, and Boston. Not surprsingly they ranked 1, 2, 3, and 4 in points given up per 100 possessions. Moreover they all made the playoffs and 3/4 were legit championship contenders(and Houston probably would've been had Yao not gotten hurt).

Or you can look at the past few years where there have only been two consistently great defenses: SA and Detroit. And they've both obviously had a ton of success.

Meanwhile teams like Golden State and Phoenix have probably been the best offenses in recent history. Yes they've had some success, but it hasn't been overwhelming at all with not even a Finals appearance to show for it.

Defense has proven to win in the real NBA. Now this league is a bit different and I see that you get to that later, so I'll wait to respond to you later on in this post. But just to be clear: In the history of the real NBA, defense has been more important to winning than offense. Earlier on in this thread I posted this:

07-08 Celtics: 9th in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
06-07 Spurs: 5th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
05-06 Heat: 7th in offensive rating, 9th in defensive rating
04-05 Spurs: 8th in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
03-04 Pistons: 18th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
02-03 Spurs: 7th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
01-02 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
00-01 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 21st in defensive rating
99-00 Lakers: 4th in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
98-99 Spurs: 11ts in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
97-98 Bulls: 8th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
96-97 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating
95-96 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
94-95 Rockets: 6th in offensive rating, 12th in defensive rating
93-94 Rockets: 15th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
92-93 Bulls: 2nd in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
91-92 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating
90-91 Bulls: 1st in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
89-90 Pistons: 11th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating
88-89 Pistons: 7th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
87-88 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 9th in defensive rating
86-87 Lakers: 1st in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
85-86 Celtics: 3rd in offensive rating, 1st in defensive rating
84-85 Lakers: 1st in offensive rating, 7th in defensive rating
83-84 Celtics: 5th in offensive rating, 3rd in defensive rating
82-83 76ers: 5th in offensive rating, 5th in defensive rating
81-82 Lakers: 2nd in offensive rating, 10th in defensive rating
80-81 Celtics: 5th in offensive rating, 4th in defensive rating

Average for all champs: 5.36th in offensive rating, 4.96th in defensive rating



I don't understand what you mean by "stop." Lets say you take a player like Kobe Bryant. Normally lets say he scores 27 points on 55% TS(numbers totally off the top of my head). Now lets say you match him up with the Spurs with Bruce Bowen on him and Tim Duncan waiting for him in the paint. Is it not fair to assume that he may only get 22 points on 52% TS now?

And since a team like mine has no defensive weak spots, I can do this against every offesive player on your team, not to mention that if you have an offensive weak spot(Rondo, Ben Wallace, Rodman, etc.) then I can play off him with my great help defense.

You say that I'm foolish to think that I'm going to really stop the top offensive teams, but I think you're foolish if you think anyone is going to run all over the top defensive teams.

A team like the recent Suns is as strong offensively as any in the draft. Hell they had players drafted at #22, #27, #32, #173, and #210 in this draft! Yet when they played the Spurs in the playoffs in recent years here were their point totals:

2007: 106, 101, 101, 104, 85, 106
2005: 114, 108, 92, 111, 95
Average: 102.09 points per game

Thats good, but its not insane. Plus my defense is better than the Spurs, while I don't think any offense in our league is as good as one that has 3 first round picks in this draft, two of whom solely went in the first due to their offense(in fact their offense alone probably has them ranked higher than where they went, but their defense dropped them down to where they went).

I guess you basically need to define "stop" before we go on. I think my team(or other good defenses) can easily frustrate the top offenses and hold them around 100 points on below average efficiency.


Totally disagree here. First off, as I said my defense should be better than the Spurs. Yes they have the advantage of Bruce Bowen, but Rodney McCray is no slouch at all on defense so Bowen's edge isn't huge there. And then AK47 or Outlaw>Oberto, Penny=Manu(to be honest I'm not certain how to rank this matchup), and Harper>Parker. Not to mention that my 6th man will be either McCray or Outlaw depending on matchups, so my 6th man>Barry/Horry.

And on offense, I think those Suns teams are just as good as any offense drafted. Amare and Nash weren't mid first round picks due to their defense!!! Marion...yeah he went there partially due to his strong D, but his O is very good too. So to get a team like that you'd pretty much have to have 3 first round picks in our draft!



90 points? Of course not. But I will definitely slow them down a ton. And its not like my offense sucks. I have Duncan and Penny who can score plenty. And then I have a bunch of very efficienty role players, three of whom(McCray, Harper, AK47) are very capable of putting up 15-20 points on any given night.

If I can limit that team to 100 points then my offense can definitely win that for me imo.


Your logic makes no sense. The Spurs in the NBA held many teams to 90 points, but against the elite offensive teams like the Suns they give up over 100. Yet you use 90 points against perhaps the best offensive team in our league(Alex's) as a benchmark? Thats totally unfair.

My team could definitely hold the bad teams under 90 and limit the good teams to a little over 100, and thats pretty much what the Spurs do.

Of course pace plays a big factor in this too, so maybe total points per game isn't the best measuring stick, although my team will most likely be slow paced like the Spurs, so its moot.

First off Bowen does give you something on offense in that he can hit the open 3, he spaces the floor well, he rarely takes bad shots that hurt the team, and hes an efficient passer when swinging the ball around the key.

Secondly, Bowen went in the 6th round. Compare that to the all offense/ no defense guys who have been going since the first(Amare/Nash) continuing on to the 2nd round(Arenas, Gasol, Allen, Price) and all the way throughout the whole thing.

How is it "overrated" to go in the 6th round!!!???

Even still I think you're wrong and Bowen was a steal there. You seem to be confusing completely shutting down an offense with severely limiting it. Each shot that Bowen's man misses that he wouldn't have missed against a weaker defender is just as good as scoring on the other end. Hell its even more valuable if your team already has plenty of scoring options.

Again you're using these phrases like "shut down" or "stop." Of course nobody can shut down Kobe. Hes definitely going to get his points. However you can limit his points and make him take more shots to get them.

Not true at all. Bowen, for example, definitely doesn't get help when guarding Kobe. Yes the big men will step up when Kobe drives, but they do that for every player they're defending. The beauty of having a guy like Bowen is that when Kobe is isolated you don't have to help off shooters because you can trust Bowen to only let Kobe take a tough jumper or to funnel Kobe towards his big men to help.

+1 for let xorbie take over bigcat team.

+1

I agree that sergz is a really bad matchup for me precisely because our teams our so polarized and he has two guys that can lock down my two best offensive players, severely limiting my gameplan. On the other hand, put him up against Nicholas's team and I think he gets destroyed.

two very long posts, but one thing I want to address. The love for steroid's team. Yes, he has Jordan. Yes, Terry fits very nicely on that team.

But Josh Smith was assuredly a reach. And Juwan Howard was an AWFUL choice. Honestly I'd draft Joe Smith over him. But really he could have had AC Green, West, Caron.. basically the whole next ROUND of picks were better than Juwan Howard.

And I generally find Camby overrated. Trouble staying on the court, weak-side block prowler rather than elite defensive post defense (read a good article about this recently. Opposing centers go off on Camby because he's so block hungry). Pretty weak offensively.

Jordan is amazing, but he's not like this superhero who willed 6 teams to rings. He played for awesome teams. When they weren't so awesome, Jordan suffered playoff exit after playoff exit. That's exactly what I expect out of this squad in this league.

I honestly forget whatever you said about Deron.

With Moncrief, I'm not going to argue the longevity issue because it may just be that we have a difference of opinion. Personally, 6 stud years is enough for me. Most players start to fall off after 30 anyway. If that causes you to greatly devalue a guy, then I totally understand your position but lets just agree to disagree there.

Moncrief was an absolute stud imo. Hes Kevin Martin's scoring ability coupled with Bruce Bowen's defense coupled with Dwyane Wade's passing and playmaking ability. Thats such a sick combonation imo.

Since I made the statement that Moncrief should've been a first rounder, heres a list of SGs/SFs who went in the first that I think hes better than: Vince Carter, James Worthy, Reggie Miller, Grant Hill, Shawn Marion, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins.

Not sure what you mean by Ray Allen's career arc. If you're saying that he was better in his prime than Moncrief, I definitely disagree. Approx numbers here....

Moncrief's prime: 20-22 points, 60% TS, 6 rebounds, 4.5 assists, best wing defense in the league

Allen's prime: 22-25 points, 57.5% TS, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, average wing defense

Basically Allen gives you a tad bit more points per game and is worse in everything else.


If you're arguing for Allen based upon longevity, then as I said, I understand your argument. However, I'd rather go for a championship in the first 6 years and then have to rebuild than be consistenty mediocre, so I'll take my chances with Moncrief(again though...I can completely understand your position here).

Ill offer to take over Big Cat's team.

D

EDIT: Offer revoked. I just looked at his squad. I want nothing to do with that train wreck.

omg finally back and I see two things:

1. The Perk debate. lol. When Bobbo told me he got picked I KNEW it was gonna be by epipen. I'll just add my thoughts: Perk is good. He is underrated by everyone in the world besides Celtics fans. He is a very good post defender. He is a very good team player. But would I have taken him there? No. He's slow, his hands aren't great, and he's injury prone. You cannot deny those things. He also fouls a ****load (although I'm sure if you asked KP he would say he never fouls, just judging by his reaction after every foul.) I like KP and if you were going for a very good defensive lockdown post guy who doesn't look for a lot of touches (although can convert very efficiently when asked to), then he's your guy. And yeah, he'll eat softies like Gasol for breakfast all day.

2. BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGCAT

D104 FTW.

Pretty good discussion going on. Epip that was a well thought out post. FWIW I actually think my O is the strength, but I'll take being in your fave 5

Alex and Epip bring up some great points about matchups and the relative strengths of these teams. There are SO MANY good squads out there that it will be very difficult to rate them effectively until they're matched up with another squad.

But the speculation is cool.

FWIW, I really like about 25 of the teams, and have trouble coming up with a group of "elites."

Also +1 on Assani and the importance of defense.

I agree with you, and I love your team.

I think people see a lack of dominant scorers on teams and think that means they won't be good offensively. But if you have a 7 man rotation whose total PPGs come out to 95-110 and they all score efficienty then I think you have a great offense. This is especially true if you've also drafted players who are all good passers(I've especially tried to do this) becuase it will create even more easy baskets and will up your efficiency.

The only problem I have with your team is positionally. Schrempf will probably have to see a lot of minutes at PF where hes ok but not his best, and I hate Arenas being the only guy with PG skills on your roster, as hes clearly not a pass first player.

I like Alex's team too, but I think yours is better.

dangit D104, this was your chance to pull a John Lucas circa 1992.

I disagree that Perk is slow...last year yes he was, this year he increased his mobility a ton and it really showed on his pick and roll defense.

The rest of your post I agree with, and yes I will be using him as a lockdown defensive guy who won't be getting touches (only touches he will get are when his defender leaves him and he can get an open dunk, or when he gets an offensive rebound we will have him kick the ball out unless its a dunk and if he doesn't he will have to run laps in practice).

Apparently, neither does BigCat.