lol - he still argues when everyone is clearly trying to stop this epip madness.

No, I'm not wrong. You just refuse to see anyone's points though, so its pointless.

People bring up that Perk gets in foul trouble a lot and you say that Rivers just doesn't play him enough and that its not him getting quick fouls and then getting pulled.

People bring up that KG and Allen being added to the team helped Perk go from an inefficient offensive player and average defender to very good defender and efficient player, and you say that everyone's overestimating how much that helped.

People bring up stats, and you say that you've seen him play and we havn't(lol) and you have to watch the games to see things stats can't tell you.


Basically no matter what anyone says, you'll refuse to budge. You make ridiculous excuses for every one of your picks' shortcomings. Even though I make a post saying that overall I like your pick but then point out some negative aspects of it, you'll never simply agree...you always feel as if that post is some sort of attack and your pick and then make a million excuses to defend it.

Its really no fun arguing with someone who refuses to even accept the fact that he might just be wrong. Sorry. If you want to take that as me admitting that I'm wrong, then so be it. You win.

Ya cause that's exactly how it went...anyway i'm sure ull get laughs from at least 10 of the people who love trolling me yet can't actually back up anything they say....kinda like urself.

and despite the fact that xorbie, Shark Doctor, and myself all pretty much just said the same thing, EPeen still won't get it and see what hes doing. Its amazing how delirious someone can be.

And you refuse to see mine, when have u ever admited u were wrong in an argument with me?

I never said he never gets in foul trouble, it just isn't the main reason he doesn't play 30 mpg, that is Doc. I don't see how anyone logical can dispute that.

I agreed about the offensive part, infact i've said it multiple times. However it def didn't help his defense nearly as much as you people claim, and even if he did (which it didn't), I will be surrounding him with just as good, if not a better defensive supporting cast than the Celtics have.

I am still waiting you to link me those stats which can accurately show how good a persons pick and roll defense is, and 1v1 defense is...i'm waiting and have asked u at least 3 times now since the stat sheet obv shows u this like u claim, and watching the games doesn't.

When have I made any excuses about Perkins offense? You and others make a wrong point that KG is the reason Perkins is a very good/great defender but then say I like your pick. Obv this is a ridiculously extreme example, but imagine if I said I like your Duncan pick but he wasn't a great defensive player, what would u say? You'd argue it obv.

Again, when have u ever admited u were wrong in an argument with me (and we've had countless)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOO

EPeen,

I'm done arguing with you. If you want to take that as me admitting I'm wrong, then go ahead. If you want to keep believing that we're all just trolling you or we're all just constantly wrong while you're constantly the one person who is right on every issue, then go ahead.

Assani

Please link me to these stats that show how good someones pick and roll defense and 1v1 man to man post defense is please that's all I ask.

Epi, please just stop.

I just want a link to these stats that's all, shouldn't be hard at all.

Epip - Nobody is going to do the stat work, it's not worth it. You aren't going to convince anybody, and the only thing you are going to accomplish is annoying people even more. A lot of guys here agree with you to some extent, so just leave it at that.

But Assani has stats that accurately show how good/bad someones pick and roll defense and 1v1 man defense are which are easily more effective than watching the games, so I am just curious about this since it would be a huge basketball breakthrough.

I don't see what the big problem is (I don't even care anymore about arguing about Perkins since even making an early 2nd round pick in this draft Gasol look soft as silly puddy after Gasol tore it up all year long on national tv won't change anyones mind), I just want these stats.

what havnt I backed up?...that you make redundant posts and have clearly derailed this thread countless times?...Im sorry but I just dont feel like going back and quoting 235 of your posts that would support this argument.

You clearly dont understand that this is bigger than just you making your points heard, and having a good ole debate.

this.


And the funny thing is that I'm one of those guys who does agree with him to some extent. Its just that I could make a post saying "EPeen, great pick. I love these ten things about your player, but theres this one thing I dislike" and he'd then start some argument about that one thing. I mean seriously, he was trying to downplay the foul issue when anyone who isn't completely biased can see that Perkins is foul prone. Would it really have been that hard to just say "Yes Perkins is foul prone but I think its offset by his positives"?

Please bump my post where I said something like this.

I was laughing at your notion that you watch the games and the rest of us don't.

We need a pick! quick!

See this is just wrong, when didn't I say Perkins fouls a lot? I agreed with that (although I did say he has improved his fouling which he has) I just said it wasn't the main reason he didn't play 30-35 mpg, and that Doc is, and you nor anyone else has said anything close to proving it wasn't.

I acknowledge Perk's offensive short comings. Heck I will even acknowledge he is somewhat injury prone which u guys never brought up.

You act as if I haven't acknowledged any of his short comings and I clearly did.

But to not call him a very good/great defender and claim that KG was the reason he improved his defense (when it really was him improving his mobility and learning how to play better 1v1 post defense), is what I was arguing about.

Anyway just had to clear that up for the 10th time, still waiting on the stats.

So you watch even close to the amount of Celtics games I have this year?

Why do you think almost all the Celtic fans rave about Perkins defense? Because they didn't watch him as much as you did?

Maybe you should admit that these Celtic fans know a lot more about the Celtics than you do and can make a lot better assesments of their players, just like you know a lot more about the Wizards than we do?

Epip I don't think people are saying "KG is the reason his defense improved." What they are saying is that he had something to do with it. Guys aren't arguing that "he gets two quick fouls and sits on the bench," they are arguing that he's a foulbox. I really think you take too many extremes in your arguments, and you'd be much better off just acknowledging them, making your point, and moving on.

No see I am the one saying KG had something to do with it (just like Perk and the rest of the Celtics had something to do with KG's defense improving as well).

They are the ones saying it GREATLY benefited Perkins on defense and that is the main reason Perk's defense has improved. Assani, vixi, and countless others in this thread have said this, that is the whole point.

I am the one saying he fouls a lot, they are the ones saying he always gets 2 quick fouls and fouls are the reason he doesn't get more minutes.

They are the ones who are taking it to extremes, not me.

Please bump my post where I said that about stats like I asked you.

Yes homers see their teams more than me. They're also biased. I think you're a very big homer. Therefore, I'd rather trust my own analysis of the Celtics than yours. There are many posters here who I trust to remain unbiased and I will take their analysis over my own regarding their teams though...you just aren't one of them, sorry.

That could not be because of a recency bias or even Celtics homers, could it?

You have laughed countlessly throughout this thread at the "watch the games argument". You don't realize that watching the games a lot of times tells u MORE than the stats can especially on the defensive end. You seem to think otherwise, I guarentee you if let me or anyone else who knows basketball watch a full year of a player on defense, I can tell you more accurately how good of a defensive player they are than stats can.

That's the whole point of watching the games, it has a ton of merit on the defensive side of the ball (offensive not so much, as stats do a much better job on offense but are still flawed). You will always get a better understanding on how good a player is on defense if you watch the games, than if you look at stats (even the advanced ones).

I am def not a very big homer and I guarentee you I know more about the Celtics than you do and it's not even close.

i don't think it's exactly fair to use this in your defense, as Bobbo was one of the main guys who was pointing out problems with Perk and he probably watches just as many Celts games as you do.

"yeah, doc is an idiot, but perk always gets 2 quick fouls which results in lack of PT. also he's rarely on the floor during crunch time, can't hit a FT obv

"However Perkins man almost never gets an offensive rebound, which is very important and doesn't show up in the stats sheet."

this is speculation and nearly impossible to prove, and from watching games, i'd say it isn't true. there is another guy on the celtics who hasn't been drafted yet who is incredible at boxing out, and by doing so, doesn't get a ton of boards, but prevents his man from getting an o-board."

and

"obviously he doesn't "always" get 2 quick fouls! But you need to notice that his career 5.1 PF per 36 is the major reason as to WHY he doesn't get more minutes. Plus as KKF said, he is out of shape already - he played on a slow paced team, so surely you can't say his conditioning would be better / would allow him to play a full game. Perkins 61.9% FT shooting is pretty woeful as well, so I don't know why you would WANT him on the floor in crunch time."

Bobbo and GKA are the only 2 Celtics fans I know of that think this.

The rest of the Celtics fans (KidColin, Tbach, Xorbie etc) all agree more with me, they just haven't voiced their opinions in the thread.