I don't remember Fat, but I know hes highly regarded. Can someone explain to me his woeful TS% and what he does so well?

I know that you mention that its a limited sample size, but I think you fail to realize how next to nothing a sample size of 4 really is. I don't think that means one thing to be honest, as you just can't tell from 4 games against inferior competition. Hell, didn't Undrafted Player X look amazing in this year's summer league?

Well, I did clarify that I'm not concerned with the numbers but with the fact that O'Neal did what was best for the team in the games. I only mentioned the numbers because they help punctuate the point that JoN can play a good team game.

I feel like I should stop trying though. I keep saying that JoN can be reasonably efficient when not shouldering the load. You guys keep saying no. I throw out the only time JoN played without being the number 1 option as evidence and you say it doesn't count. With nothing else to go on I'm out of a case, I suppose.

Whatever. I guess I'm doomed to having Jermaine jack up 40 shots a game inefficiently. I should have realized that no team with Jermaine O'Neal can ever be good on the offensive end.

Like I said, I don't know a ton about Lever, but at first glance I absolutely hate the pick for this team offensively. I think you don't really need a true PG with Lebron on the team. What you need are shooters who can space the floor and hit open shots imo.

you always need passing, defense, and rebounding, no matter how good your team are, in this areas, any edge is good to take.
Plus you have to think at what kind of rebounds I'll be getting: Lots of long rebounds= Fastbreak= easy buckets.
You better not miss your threes against my team.

And nickname is obviously one of the main reaons I regard him so highly

Exactly what I've said before.
I've already have one of the best shooter in the eague.
And you 're right about guys that can space the fllor and hit open shoots, but I can get them later.

you've got to stop thinking about team in just one way.
Of course the standard with Lebron james is guys who can hit open shots, but I'll be ablle to play this type of game by picking good bench guys.
Now my team can be a great fastbreaking team as well.

Versatlity is not just about one player, it's about your whole team.

To illustrate my point, depending on who I get in the next rounds , I might use Fat Lever a supersub.

Btw you’re all overrating the value of Lebron James at the point. If you give him the ball when he’salready in motion he’s unstoppable

pickpickpick plz

Question: Is Jordan's team at risk of Jordan getting bored and going to play baseball or are we assuming Jordan has enough interest in our league to stick around?

I like the Seikaly pick and might have considered him in the 5th

I also think the Lever pick is great, even though I don't know much about him firsthand; he definitely would've been a sleeper of mine if I hadn't decided to go with Calderon earlier. horizon's lineup looks pretty nasty at first glance.

1 thing is you can still get good/great 3 point shooters in the latter rounds. Guys who don't do much other than bomb it are very readily available just need a couple to round out my team. I think the advantage of this league having so many seasons is your really going to have deep teams and you can fix your problems on the bench. Now the bench guys will have issues but they don't have to play a lot of minutes.

This was about the time I first moved to Denver, and I think I can offer a bit of insight. First, those Nugs were like this years Woyas on crack. Doug Moe was a big proponent of wearing teams out, and getting into your offense before your opponents had time to get set. It was quite a successful system, but they never quite reached the promised land.

Anyway on Fat. He was a tremendous driver-finisher/kicker of the ball. I don't think you can compare him to Kidd because JK is more of a player that has a knack for delivering the ball perfectly without a lot of penetration, whereas Fat used confusion and his own offense to get other guys open. Rebounding wise, he was a lot like Kidd in that he used it to trigger the break. Defensively he was pretty special iirc, with great on the ball D and awesome in the passing lanes.

Nugs announcers always called him our version of Oscar Robertson, and his stats were close. During his best year he averaged ~ 19/8/7, although those numbers are obviously going to be inflated because Denver ran at such a breakneck speed and would often take bad shots if guys were in position for the board.

I think Fat would probably be something like a 15/5/6 guy in a normal system, with greater shooting efficiency and equal, if not better defense. That's still pretty freaking awesome...

I'm warming up to the pick though because I'm not sure there is as much need for a spot up guy. If horizon's team had a major post game, which they don't, I'd say a shooter is more valuable. As it stands they've now got two awesome penetrators, an all world shooter, and a decent cleanup guy. Offensively that's going to be a tough cover... Defensively it depends on how you view Emeka's game, and to be honest I haven't seen him enough to form an opinion.

[edit] After a bit of thought, I'm completely sold that this is a great pick.

Fat mfing Lever. About time. The list of guys that have put up a 18/8/8 season looks like this: Jordan/Magic/Fat. That's it. Insane. Value at this point, I think he could have been taken as a slight reach in the 3rd, good value in the 4th, and a total steal in the 5th.

Awesome pick.

D

A couple things wrong with this:

1. Selective end points. Why did you stop at 18/8/8? Why not 20/7/7?
2. Ignoring efficiency. Fat jacked up 16-18 shots per game during those years. Scoring 20 points on 17 shots isn't so hot, and you're adding him to a team with Lebron (20+ shots per game), Drazen (16 shots per game), Horace (10 shots per game) and Okafor (12 shots per game). He's the 5th best shooter on the team but he takes more shots than most #1 options.

Holy cow Fat!

Jeez, if I can't use selective endpoints, what's the point of stats?

But I looked at his stats and saw the 8reb/8ast season and then just plugged in his points into bref and those were the names that came up. I know, the pace, but I think its still pretty impressive.

Add in the fact that he was an great defender, and it seems like a great pick to me.

D

I think the pace has a lot to do with his efficiency and inflated stats. Those Nugs pretty much shot when they had a sliver of daylight, so Fat is going to have more points/assists/rebs/steals than he would in a normal system, but he'll also be less efficient given the number of shots. I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd be a 15/5/5 guy with a TS around 55% in a normal system. That's still pretty awesome at this point in the draft.

Plus anyone who can go 31/16/20/6 in a 100-96 game is a pretty valuable teammate, methinks.

Fat Lever is ******ly sick value in round 5. Nicely done. Not a perfect fit with LBJ as others have said, but it def will work.

I was hoping he fell off the map and got him as a backup, great value now though.

And I agree that there is a huge drop-off between Deke and Rony, we are talking 5 rounds here ldo. The drop-off hasn't been what I am talking about. I am saying that being able to play an effective transition game w/ a center that can outrun the traditional centers is the way to go. This is a hypothetical situation, you have the ability to build whatever you would like--you don't have a brand new franchise like the late 80's Miami Heat that were awful and Rony Seikaly had carry them on his back. This pick was made for team reasons not player available reasons.

The difference in quality would matter if Rony was 7'2 275 not 230 at age 24 and played a style like the best center available currently. A lot of you are looking at the pick like it is Rony vs. <insert legend center> but you can't think this way. You have to beat those centers w/ your entire team dynamic not the centers that have never been able to beat them...ever.

Not buying this argument at all. From age 25 to age 29, Fat Lever was ALWAYS took the 2nd most shots of any Nugget behind Alex English. The only time someone other than Alex English out shot him was in his age 24 season (Calvin Natt, ldo).

In 1986-87, he shot 600 more time than the next guy.

The thing is in the 5th round your going to get a guy with a huge hole in his game. Obviously Fat is pretty inefficient, but he's one of the best teams guys of the era (I know they played fast), he passed and rebounded pretty damn well for a guard. I know for his team he probally could have used a more efficient scorer but you can get low volume high efficiency guys on the bench. I still think going for value can't hurt now rather than filling holes, it's going to be harder later to get good players and easier to fill holes with good role players.

He didn't pass too well, though. That was an illusion of pace. He rebounds well, he passes okay, and he's a chucker. He's a shoot first guy who can't shoot.

how do you explain his Ass/to ratio?

That's really not what I'm arguing. The point I'm trying to make is that Fat would be a lower volume/higher efficiency guy in a normal system. XXXXXXX preached quick shots and offensive rebounds, so often Fat would pass to someone who wasn't in the best position to shoot, but did it anyway. Because of this, fat's rebounding and assists are a bit inflated. Even if his assists came off lower percentage shots, they were still there in abundance due to the sheer volume of shots taken. Likewise for his shooting--Fat took a bunch of bad shots because the offense he ran dictated it. I don't think the quantity of his shots in relation to the team would change in a different system, but I do think the quality of those shots would increase.