Maybe I missed it, but yesterday I asked you to respond to it and you said that you were getting around to it. Then I said that I'm leaving for the night. I never saw one post after that where you ever discussed Penny yet alone responded to those 2 posts.

and finally caught up!

Nah, mullin is prob better, I just don't think by as much as people are making it to be. I think Mullin should've gone higher than he did too. Also, I just thought the all star game and mvp votes were a weird stat to throw out there.

Who would you put in the top 5?

Duncan, KG? Then. I'm pretty sure every guy you put in your top 5 is picked, if not just put XXXX.

Well since those don't count can you please explain why Kiki> Mullin? I know I picked Mullin so I'm biased, but Mullin could have gone at 40 and no one would have said it was a bad pick.

Mullin was more efficient, a much better passer, a better rebounder, anda better defender. Mullin also had a very high 5 season peak (like Kiki), but also was a very good player into his mid 30's.

Many have also said Mullin is an underrated defender. When I made the pick I didn't even care if he was bad or average, but people seem to think he was average at worst. You don't want to put him 1-1 with a prolific scorer, but he isn't the type of player that will kill your defense making up for his problems.

All of this, plus Mullin still scored at a 25+ per game clip for 5 consecutive seasons, so Kiki's scoring peak isn't even that much of an advantage. Kiki also played for those crazy Nuggets teams (Mullin played under Nelson yes, but not exactly the same thing).

I just don't get why you are expecting us to argue why Mullin>> Kiki, when it should be you convincing a vast majority of people in this thread why Kiki> Mullin.

Kiki was definitely an elite scorer. His TS% is insanely high for a great scorer, with that being said he probally should have gone ahead of a lot of other pure scorers but his peak is not exceptional long and his D is terrible and of those picked last round the only other guy who I think truly brings terrible D on top of Kiki is Redd and Kiki should have easily gone before him. Personally I think swing players who play good D and maybe aren't as great of scorers are more valuable in this especially when you have teams with MJ, Kobe, etc. and need to be guarded but I guess that can also be addressed later with rediculous wing defenders who can't do much else since Kiki is so good offensively.

assani, tell me what post you want me to respond to, or what question u want answered and will address it. im not gonna reread 3 pages of posts and try to guess which post u didnt think i answered sufficiently, when we had a 50 post exchange.

Jesus Christ, learn how to multi-quote. At least that way all your thoughts from 4 pages ago are contained in one spot so I can more effectively scroll past a bunch of stuff that has mostly been rehashed a bunch.

This post is excellent.

I really don't have an opinion on whether or not they were great picks, but I thought it was weird that Kiki garnered so much hate, then two picks later Aguirre has gotten all of this love.

[edit] Also the Kiki D defense (lol pun ftw!), is terribly bad considering we are using Aguirre as a control. Neither of them were any good, and neither of them were that much better.

So why does Aguirre have a offensive rating worse than his defensive, while Kiki's is 3 points higher? I think that's pretty telling considering played for worse teams than Aguirre.

Not that I think he's better, it's just an observation.

I don't think its as much Kiki getting hate as people hating on the statements that Kiki > all SF's picked in 2nd round.

I liked the Kiki pick a lot.

Like I said, that post was hyperbole for the point of discussion, and I've obviously weakened from that stance since:

You posted that while I was writing my post. So yea, its weakened in the past 10 minutes.

I think the Kiki pick is hated for a few reasons:

1. Kiki benefitted a lot from playing on those Nuggets teams
2. He has a way worse rep than Aguirre defensively
3. MEb "lol, my pick was so awesome, he's better than Mullin."

That said... relying on DWS or DRtg (which are the same thing) is a little lol. It's highly team dependant and it's really all we have, but some elite defensive guards have pretty bad DRtgs, too. Aguirre was a pretty key guy on two Detroit championship teams with great defenses. Is he the best defender? No, of course not. Is it going to matter? Well I have plenty of picks left to get a good wing defender.

Aguirre's going to give me 19 shots/game at above average efficiency. He's going to break down guys one-on-one when it calls for it, but he was a very versatile scorer that gives me just a few more ways to put points on the board.

No, he can't hit a 3, but he's not like a Baron Davis level chucker. He shot 150+ 3 times and had a combined % of like .32. Besides, I'm probably gonna have 2 or 3 good 3 point shooters on the floor at all times. No, he's not a great defender but he didn't kill the Pistons with his defense, and considering I have one of the best defensive centers in the game, I doubt it's really gonna matter too much.

Aguirre's WSAA is also negative for his career ftw.

Kiki's ORtg (based on per 100 possessions so pace shouldn't effect it) is #5 all-time amongst the likes of Stockton, Magic, Reggie, Moncrief, Barkley.

Read rest of thread imo.

Someone said Mullin and someone else were clearly better than Kiki, you then responded with an obnoxious response about how you would love to see the evidence behind that.

Now its all just hyperbole and exaggeration though and we are idiots. Riiiiight.

Why are you trying to start an argument where there isn't one? What is hard to understand about that? I love that you are attacking someone who is agreeing with you...... Am I wrong for trying to get people to actually put something behind their arguments, instead of just stating X>Y even if it is true? Also it was about the fact that they made it out that Mullin>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kiki, not that Mullin>Kiki.

1. Not attacking at all, I've backed up your pick,

2. You were being abrasive about it earlier, not anyone else.

Kiki benefitted from playing in those offenses just as Aguirre did with Dallas. He was the 3-4 option on those Detroit teams, and was their second guy off the bench for much of this. Even so, his offensive efficiency dropped considerably, especially his PER.

I think saying he was a key guy on those Pistons teams is overrestimating his function with that team.

Whenever I check this thread I feel like Steve Carrell's character from Anchorman, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT."

Incidentally, every time I've made a pick I've felt like Ron Burgundy when he jumps into the bear pit, "I IMMEDIATELY regret this decision"

I just think its funny that you're up in arms about the fact that I was purposely abrasive in order to generate discussion about my pick. But we can hug and talk about Detlef if you want?

i posted this earlier:

more regarding pace:
Kiki's teams during his first 8 years (prime): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st (all with DEN), 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd (all with POR)
Aguirre's teams during his first 7.5 years (prime): 21st, 14th, 18th, 23rd, 12th, 14th, 20th, 24th (all with DAL)

this equated to 10-15 more possessions/game

kiki's team situation in DEN/POR was significantly different than Aguirre's team situation in DAL

Yes, but Kiki was way more efficient and had the 5th best ORtg of th era, which shouldn't be effected by pace, so the argument that Kiki is only better due to pace doesn't hold water.

I like the Artest pick he's currently my favorite player in the NBA (Kings fan) and this makes a team I like. Don't know how they'll win. Artest is great defensively but he's bat @#$# crazy and pretty inefficient offensively.

Holy God Reggie, Rodman, Artest. That is a badass team, but also liable to have anyone/everyone on their team ejected on a given night.