Take a look at 93-94 when Jordan was retired.

22.0 points
8.7 rebounds
5.6 assists
2.9 steals
0.8 blocks
49.1% FG
51.5% eFG
54.4% TS
#4 in the league in PER
All Defensive 1st Team
All NBA 1st Team
All Star Game MVP
3rd in MVP voting

Oh and btw, he carried a team composed of BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, and Bill Wennington to 55 wins that year!

And on top of all of that, consider that the Bulls were 25th out of 27 teams in pace that year which means that Pippen's numbers are deflated.


The argument that Pippen couldn't be the best player on a team is complete and total BS, as this was by far his best year.

Yes, you're building a franchise so you most definitely care about the future of the team as well as the present. From the rules:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh....php?p=3996634

my sleepers

And yet people continue to think that naming players doesn't affect drafters, lol.

Meh, Pippen sat for almost 10 picks after people started talking about him, and he could've been taken several picks *before* they started talking about him.

Payton had been talked about since Isiah for cryin' out loud.

Assani you haven't addressed my concerns about you influencing my #5 pick

- I had Pip right behind KG, in a virtual tie with Barkley/Malone. It's just a sexy pick because he was so versatile. You basically kill 3 needs (Guard to dribble up the court and run the break, perimeter defender, scorer) with one pick. Had Epi been willing to trade for KG, I would have done it.. and that was about 4 picks ago.

I was always disappointed in the way Pip's career ended though, but oh well he was a steal at that point..

- Props to the last few picks for getting them up so fast.

- Payton vs. Kidd vs. Thomas. Depending on the team around him, I think you can make a case for:

Kidd>Payton>Thomas

(lots of great wing shooters and offensive weapons who need touches in specific spots, or a SG who's short, team that needs help with the boards)

Payton>Thomas>Kidd

(A PG on a defensive minded team who can score and distribute to the wide open player)




If that makes sense.

Wat. I don't get it. People were universally disagreeing that T-Mac would not be a good pick, and somehow it influences Dudd to take him 7 spots later? Keep in mind those comments were two days ago.

I have a hard time thinking Dudd read "T-Mac should be a 2nd or 3rd rounder" and thinking, hmm... time to pick T-Mac!

No, more likely he fell in love with his high peak and felt he needed a swing man.

This might be my favorite Assani post. Well done.

The whole Nash defense argument is weak sauce imo. After the two already taken, there's a cavernous drop-off from that point amongst the NBA's elite. A better argument would have been his late peak.

IMO the nash and t-mac picks were two of the best value in the draft. Nash because I assume that in his Dallas years he could've done with what he did in Phoenix if given the chance, and T-mac simply because the guy can flatout play, and his best year is one of the best ever. Injury concerns for both (T-mac especially). I pick in a few!!!

Whenever I try to enforce this rule you guys just mock me, tell me how I'm wrong, or try to search for some vague way where I broke the rule. Seriously, I would think that since I put this together and got it going that you could at least just respect the rules, no? I understand that I'm gonna take a little teasing and have some jokes made here and there, but I've been asking this for days now and you guys just keep ignoring me.

Just stop mentioning players please. I don't care to debate it or defend anything I've done. If I messed up and mentioned a player then I made a mistake and I need to stop it too. Now please stop it.

In fairness to Assani, in about 6-7 picks we'll be in territory where literally 15 guys could be taken at any given moment. I agree it hasn't been a big deal yet since we're still talking about a pretty short list of eligible guys, but the hall of famers and statistical freaks are rapidly going off the board.

Probably as good a time as any to stop naming, especially since there's so much to talk about, including the horrible picks like TMac (injuries) Nash (defense is so important in this league IMO), Amare (see nash and TMac combined), Kidd>Payton (discussed already in this thread), Wilkins>Pippen (easiest to get commodity vs. toughest to get) etc.

I like the pick, but what about the argument that he was pretty bad without Phil Jackson? I guess you could bring up injuries as an excuse, but then we'd have even more to knock him down for. Don't you think the seasons from age 32-38 are just as conclusive as the one after Jordan retired? I'm not saying I'm sold, just opening up a can of worms.

Also, I think an argument can be made that Kidd is easier to build around than Payton.

Likelihood of Pippen's decline being due to age >>>>>> likelihood of his decline being due to not having enough zen on the sidelines

I don't get the hate on the Nash pick - the just aren't a ton of guys left who are awesome on both offense and defense. Yeah, his D stinks, but he is a near-perfect offensive player, being one of the best passers in the game and an efficient scorer himself. The one strong argument against Nash could be his late peak, but it seems that most people here believe he would perform at near-peak levels right from the beginning for the purposes of this league if he is put in the right system. I think he was a very solid pick at this point in the draft.

You know what else "don't lie"?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhWeEGyIdI

Assani,
how many seasons are we playing?

wow linking to TWO potential players you're outta here

How so? He was 32. If he starts a rapid decline at 32, that's pretty early.

Not really.

Nash is not great tu build around.
He was great as a Suns, but honestly the Maveric's results are pretty bad given how stacked the team was.
If you built around Nash, you have to go according to the Suns' model or your lose a ton of value on your pick.

32 is not an unusual age for players to start declining... Looking at his PER numers, I do see your point a little bit, it's in a very gradual decline until he leaves Chicago, then falls off suddenly by 4 points, then resumes the gradual decline. Still, I don't think that's such a strange aging pattern. A lot of other star players fell off rather quickly (can't name names because I don't want to make Assani mad).

four actually, Redd took the free throws and you could see the back of Magloire's jersey. I hope nobody picks any of those players it would be a travesty.