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Old 11-14-2017, 11:53 PM   #176
Booker Wolfbox
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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I don't really cotton to baseball book learnin', but Molitor has to be one of the best players to turn manager, right?


Can confirm that he is better than Brad Ausmus.
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:55 PM   #177
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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Well this has sent me down a nice little rabbit hole. Did you know that there's a person on this planet called Noochie Varner? I didn't. He's actually a baseball player, and was involved in a Richie Sexson trade, which makes him relevent. He might actually have beeen a 2p2er, given this revelation.
I know Noochie. He plays plo. He has a baseball academy somewhere in Kentucky.
http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerID=45437
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Old 11-14-2017, 11:58 PM   #178
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Brad Ausmus has more baseball smarts than most every current MLB mgr. He just got ****ed with a ****ty first gig.
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Old 11-15-2017, 12:00 AM   #179
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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I know Noochie. He plays plo. He has a baseball academy somewhere in Kentucky.
http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerID=45437
Nice. Thumbs up to not being a degenerate and playing above your means Nooch.
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:51 PM   #180
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Scherzer wins CY!
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:12 PM   #181
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Officially Klubber over Sale!
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:35 PM   #182
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Both correct choices.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:49 PM   #183
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re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Chad Moeller is one of five Brewers to hit for the cycle.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:10 PM   #184
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Assuming Stanton is on the market, what would the deal need to look like for it not to be an albatross (like the Puljos) to the acquiring team?

Given the current reports on what Miami is asking, I don't see him being moved.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:20 PM   #185
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Miami is starting high as a point of negotiation, the same way Boras starts high with his asks. There's no expectation that they'll actually get what they're asking more, but they might get more by starting high and slowly closing the gap than they might have if they started negotiating at a more reasonable ask.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:34 PM   #186
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Did you guys know that Kluber wasn't drafted by the Indians? Because I didn't. He was actually drafted in the 4th round of the 2007 draft by San Diego, and traded in a 3-way deal at the deadline of 2010. The Padres got Ryan Ludwick, the Cardinals got Jake Westbrook and Nick Greenwood, and the Indians got Corey Kluber.

Greenwood had put up some pretty decent numbers in the minors before stalling at AAA. He appears to have last seen big league action in 2015, when he allowed 2 runs and didn't record an out, leaving with an ERA of "inf" according to B-ref. He was released after 2015. He didn't matter much anyway.

2010 Cleveland was bad, and 2010 St Louis was good, and that San Diego was good too. The Indians were like 17 games under .500 at the deadline, and wanted to shed some salary in exchange for prospects. Jake Westbrook had an $11MM salary that year and was a free agent to be. The Cardinals, meanwhile, were 12 games over .500, in the thick of a playoff race, only had one year left of Albert Pujols, and had recently lost Kyle Lohse and Brad Penny to injury, so they needed a starter. The Padres liked Ludwick, and for good reason, as he had slashed .280/.349/.507 for the Cards in recent years.

Westbrook would go to STL, and pitch pretty reasonably down the stretch, putting up a 3.48 ERA in 8 starts, providing about a WAR over 75 innings. He'd stay for 3 more seasons, getting notably worse, and finishing his career in STL after 2013, totalling the Cardinals just 1.3WAR over nearly 550 innings and costing over $25MM Greenwood appeared in 20 games total, and gave -0.2WAR.

Ludwick (who had signed in STL as a free agent 3 years earlier) stunk it up down the stretch of the 2010 season, batting .228/.301/.358 over exactly 1 year as a Padre (-0.9 WAR), getting traded for money (i.e. purchased) by the Pirates on deadline day in 2011.

Kluber, the guy Cleveland took back just to take someone back, had some decent numbers in the minors, and looked like, if everything broke right, he could be one of those guys in the back of a rotation who could eat some innings if he could ever harness his pitches and walk fewer guys. Of course, we all know now that he instead, developed a cutter and two-seamer and stopped walking anybody and became amazing, putting up a 3.30 fip in 2013, and has been the best pitcher in the AL since, racking up 27 WAR in the process. Needless to say, turning Westbrook in to Kluber is a ****ing miracle for Cleveland. The path travelled to get Westbrook in the first place is where this gets a bit dicey.

Regardless, Westbrook was acquired by Cleveland from NYY with Ricky Ledee and Zach Day for David Justice (!). As mentioned in Moneyball, the Yankees paid pretty much all of Justice's remaining contract-- what I didn't know at the time was that the Yankees traded him to the Mets for Robin Ventura, and it was the Mets who sent him to Oakland. Anyway, Justice was acquired by Cleveland along with Marquis Grissom (!) from Atlanta for Alan Embree and Kenny Lofton (!!!!).

Embree was, rather boringly at this rate, drafted by Cleveland in 1989 (!!!!!). Lofton, however, was acquired back in 1991 (!!!) for Willie Blair and Ed Taubensee. Taubensee was picked up off waivers, while Blair was acquired from Toronto in 1990 for Alex Sanchez... here's the kicker: Sanchez was drafted by Toronto, but was then traded to Cleveland for Bud Black! Black signed as a free agent with Cleveland in 1988!!!!!!

Holy **** I love doing this. Corey Kluber's acquisition tree goes back to when I was in ****ing diapers.
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:22 PM   #187
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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Miami is starting high as a point of negotiation, the same way Boras starts high with his asks. There's no expectation that they'll actually get what they're asking more, but they might get more by starting high and slowly closing the gap than they might have if they started negotiating at a more reasonable ask.
I understand that. I am wondering what the deal would have to be so that the aquiring team could book a "win" (or at least not a clear loss).
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:35 PM   #188
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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Originally Posted by thebigeasy59 View Post
Did you guys know that Kluber wasn't drafted by the Indians? Because I didn't. He was actually drafted in the 4th round of the 2007 draft by San Diego, and traded in a 3-way deal at the deadline of 2010. The Padres got Ryan Ludwick, the Cardinals got Jake Westbrook and Nick Greenwood, and the Indians got Corey Kluber.

Greenwood had put up some pretty decent numbers in the minors before stalling at AAA. He appears to have last seen big league action in 2015, when he allowed 2 runs and didn't record an out, leaving with an ERA of "inf" according to B-ref. He was released after 2015. He didn't matter much anyway.

2010 Cleveland was bad, and 2010 St Louis was good, and that San Diego was good too. The Indians were like 17 games under .500 at the deadline, and wanted to shed some salary in exchange for prospects. Jake Westbrook had an $11MM salary that year and was a free agent to be. The Cardinals, meanwhile, were 12 games over .500, in the thick of a playoff race, only had one year left of Albert Pujols, and had recently lost Kyle Lohse and Brad Penny to injury, so they needed a starter. The Padres liked Ludwick, and for good reason, as he had slashed .280/.349/.507 for the Cards in recent years.

Westbrook would go to STL, and pitch pretty reasonably down the stretch, putting up a 3.48 ERA in 8 starts, providing about a WAR over 75 innings. He'd stay for 3 more seasons, getting notably worse, and finishing his career in STL after 2013, totalling the Cardinals just 1.3WAR over nearly 550 innings and costing over $25MM Greenwood appeared in 20 games total, and gave -0.2WAR.

Ludwick (who had signed in STL as a free agent 3 years earlier) stunk it up down the stretch of the 2010 season, batting .228/.301/.358 over exactly 1 year as a Padre (-0.9 WAR), getting traded for money (i.e. purchased) by the Pirates on deadline day in 2011.

Kluber, the guy Cleveland took back just to take someone back, had some decent numbers in the minors, and looked like, if everything broke right, he could be one of those guys in the back of a rotation who could eat some innings if he could ever harness his pitches and walk fewer guys. Of course, we all know now that he instead, developed a cutter and two-seamer and stopped walking anybody and became amazing, putting up a 3.30 fip in 2013, and has been the best pitcher in the AL since, racking up 27 WAR in the process. Needless to say, turning Westbrook in to Kluber is a ****ing miracle for Cleveland. The path travelled to get Westbrook in the first place is where this gets a bit dicey.

Regardless, Westbrook was acquired by Cleveland from NYY with Ricky Ledee and Zach Day for David Justice (!). As mentioned in Moneyball, the Yankees paid pretty much all of Justice's remaining contract-- what I didn't know at the time was that the Yankees traded him to the Mets for Robin Ventura, and it was the Mets who sent him to Oakland. Anyway, Justice was acquired by Cleveland along with Marquis Grissom (!) from Atlanta for Alan Embree and Kenny Lofton (!!!!).

Embree was, rather boringly at this rate, drafted by Cleveland in 1989 (!!!!!). Lofton, however, was acquired back in 1991 (!!!) for Willie Blair and Ed Taubensee. Taubensee was picked up off waivers, while Blair was acquired from Toronto in 1990 for Alex Sanchez... here's the kicker: Sanchez was drafted by Toronto, but was then traded to Cleveland for Bud Black! Black signed as a free agent with Cleveland in 1988!!!!!!

Holy **** I love doing this. Corey Kluber's acquisition tree goes back to when I was in ****ing diapers.
I'm always amazed about how much talent has gone through San Diego
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:36 PM   #189
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Another great post bigeasy.

Some uninteresting facts to add about individuals in that post, and ones that I'm sure have been posted in the past:

Ludwick was (for atleast a short time) the only position player in the majors to bat right and throw left.

Jake Westbrook was the winning pitcher in inarguably the best baseball game played this century...which I (jokingly) called before the game
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:46 PM   #190
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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I understand that. I am wondering what the deal would have to be so that the aquiring team could book a "win" (or at least not a clear loss).
With that contract, I'd say taking him for nothing is a loss for pretty much any team with a budget. If you're giving up something in return, it better involve either dumping another bad contract or Miami eating a huge chunk of Stanton's. Lol if anyone actually gives up real prospects straight up for the right to probably overpay a guy for a decade.

Last edited by Ungoliant; 11-15-2017 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:14 AM   #191
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

I want an Otani sweat. Anyone interested in doing a draft of his potential landing spots for $25-$50?
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:53 AM   #192
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

I hope he waits the year to truly cash in for $150 mil versus the $3mil he'll get from the Giants.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:56 AM   #193
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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I want an Otani sweat. Anyone interested in doing a draft of his potential landing spots for $25-$50?
I'm in if you'll have me. 15 people, everybody gets 2 random teams. $25 or $50 I don't care.
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Old 11-16-2017, 03:39 AM   #194
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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With that contract, I'd say taking him for nothing is a loss for pretty much any team with a budget. If you're giving up something in return, it better involve either dumping another bad contract or Miami eating a huge chunk of Stanton's. Lol if anyone actually gives up real prospects straight up for the right to probably overpay a guy for a decade.
Didn't Jeter pretty much admit the Marlins were going to have a fire sale? I'm sure he's somewhat aware of the crap the Yankees had to deal with by giving A-Rod the money he got. He might be willing to trade cheap just to get the contract out of the way.

I think Stanton also said he wouldn't agree to a trade to Boston or St. Louis? Other than the Dodgers and Yankees, what teams can take on a contract that big? Maybe the Rangers?
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Old 11-16-2017, 07:49 AM   #195
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

I honestly think Miami has the leverage here and don't think the contract is that bad. Why the **** would any team try and acquire him if they didn't think he was good enough to opt out after three years? Yeah, I get that there's risk to him sucking and not opting out, but that's not what you're buying-- you're buying a ~6WAR player at age 28 for 3 years and need ~10WAR to break even on that particular cost (I know that it's bigger than that in the grand scheme of things but I have to go to work). If you're not seeing surplus there as an acquiring organization, then you're not an acquiring organization, you're just someone who wants something for free.

Miami will have to make concessions to get something back, but this is a fair market contract, and Stanton for nothing with no money trading hands is probably really close to fair.
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Old 11-16-2017, 08:57 AM   #196
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Good for him refusing a trade to two of the three most super racist possible landing spots.
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:53 AM   #197
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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I'm in if you'll have me. 15 people, everybody gets 2 random teams. $25 or $50 I don't care.
I'll do it with you, but I was thinking 2-4 players in a snake draft.
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:55 AM   #198
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

I don't think there's much of a contest between Stanton at 10/295 and Harper at 10/400.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:06 AM   #199
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

Stanton has an opt out in 2020 right?
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:24 AM   #200
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Re: MLB Offseason Thread 2017-18

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Stanton has an opt out in 2020 right?
Yep. Makes his potential trade hella complicated.
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