But yet, the DH makes the game better!

Meh. Basically the Silver Slugger for DHs.

Unfortunately that is most assuredly not the QED you think it is. Let’s be honest here, being the best DH of all time isn’t as impressive as it sounds. Ignoring the fact that you’re a DH cuz you’re prohibitively terrible at defense and ignoring the fact only half the league plays with one, the position’s been around for all of 40 years. Not exactly a field of legends in that sample size

Name the 5 best DHs of all time and tell me which ones belong in the HOF

The problem is a lot of the best DHs of all time likely played in the field >50% of their games.

Yepppppp

It does seem curious to me that people lol at Ortiz' icon status wrt HOF chances but go on about Edgar's status as GOAT DH. Both are folklore with relatively little meaning as to how valuable they were (if anything Ortiz' CLUTCH factor made more of an actual difference, tho one can chalk that up to variance). I know Edgar has a decent sized WAR advantage but still, neither of them is a lock based on WAR alone, right?

I’ll argue that to this point Martínez was one of the most underappreciated players in history but in the annals of baseball history he’s pretty easily and justifiably forgettable. I would argue more people know that double more for Griffey beating the throw home than for Edgar hitting it

I mean Clark didn’t even know there was a best DH award til yesterday much less that it was named after Edgar

I'm inclined to treat Ortiz as a special case. The man had two history-defining moments, not only for baseball but for the city of Boston. On top of '04, "This is our ****ing city" was a major healing point after the marathon bombing and that counts for something imo.

Ok, so Sid Bream and Joe Carter should be in the Hall of Fame. Got it.


Not to mention McGwire and Sosa who basically saved baseball and then were blacklisted from the hall of fame.

You guys say that being the GOAT DH being not incredibly impressive as if he wasn't one of the greatest hitters ever. Regardless of what impact defense (or lack thereof, in this case) has, he's got offensive numbers that very few people can compare with.

No, I'm saying that Ortiz's role in 2013 transcended baseball. Bream and Carter didn't. I'm saying that Ortiz contributed to culture beyond MLB, and when that happens with a borderline HoF case, it absolutely pushes the candidacy over the line.

worked for morris.

But if he deserves to be in, why not cite his WAR and be done with it? And if his GOAT DH status is needed to bolster his candidacy, shouldn't Ortiz' clutch factor (which is just as arbitrarily selected but actually helped win championships) get him in?

That is worse than if the top closer award was the Lee Smith award.

sosa and mcgwire are fine HoF candidates to me. never heard of sid bream and bringing up carter is typical of how idiots argue. "X should matter" does not imply "X is the only thing that matters"

I dont care about whatever he said after some bombing. ortiz is best known for delivering actual hits to win actual world series on top of a hall of fame discussion level career. non baseball people knew that about him

Ya the moments in time are meant to be additional arguments for a career of arguable HOF production. Not meant to be standalone reasons

For instance Pedro had a HOF worthy career. His attempted murder of Don Zimmer bolstered his candidacy

David Ortiz' career overall batting numbers and his career numbers in practically any situation with a halfway reasonable sample size are all practically the same. Career .947 OPS for a guideline.

He has a career .947 playoff OPS
first half and second half are somehow both below .947 OPS
best month is July at .986( worst month April at .879; Sept/Oct regular season .945)
He was a .736 career OPS as a pinch hitter.
A .943 career OPS with RISP, .951 in 2-out-RISP situations, 2 outs 123 situations .977
Has a .967 OPS with any situation with men on base
OPS of .968 in tie games
.870 in situations whatever exactly "late and close" is per b-ref,
A .943 OPS in high leverage.
OPS of .836 innings 7-9, with .954 in extras.
OPS of .913 vs. teams with .500 or better records

what are you trying to convince people of? he has insane playoff numbers the years they won the WS and in the WS itself

we all know its sample size but so what

I have no idea how the rest of the world remembers it but I can assure you people where I'm from (Seattle) know who hit that double.

Griffeyyyyyyy... is coming around!

Mostly that the post I quoted before making the point I made is a bunch of phooey. The argument that clutch performance should make up for an otherwise not good enough career should only hold water if his performance in clutch situations was any better than his regular career numbers.

I guess my point was poorly made.

Im not even necessarily advocating that Ortiz' perceived clutchness should punch his ticket into the HOF. Although I'd say that producing the same numbers in October as in the regular season probably does constitute stepping your game up, since you don't face all the bad teams and IIRC run scoring is lower.

My point is: people on this site seem unwilling to give Ortiz credit for his WS "clutchness" beyond the value he produced for his team. Which is fine, but then it doesn't make sense to turn around and shout "GOAT DH" in support of Edgar, because that distinction didn't help his team on the field either. Objectively, wether there was or wasn't a DH with more WAR than Edgar shouldn't help or hurt his HOF chances.

In short: both icon status/reputation as clutch hero and status as GOAT of a position that is by definition restricted in producing value is folklore. I'd support taking folklore into account when deciding HOF status, but mostly, doing it for some players but not for others seems dumb.