Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Sporting Events Discussion centered around sporting events.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-18-2016, 11:33 AM   #126
Hall of Fame Voter
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 3
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Wise View Post
He's at 52.6 fWAR, which is pretty low by present SP standards. He needs at least another couple of 5 WAR seasons or a monumental shift in SP voting philosophy, considering Mussina (whose case is exceptional because he lacks a signature season or peak) finished with 82.2 WAR and hasn't sniffed it. A second Cy would have gone a long way towards getting him there...could literally be a difference maker.
You know who would have impressed Tampa Bay area writers? Bob Lemon. Pitching to contact is a lost art.

Mussina always had trouble pitching at the Trop. If he can't handle Tampa, what makes us think he deserves Cooperstown?
Hall of Fame Voter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 11:36 AM   #127
Gary Wise
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Gary Wise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: On the cusp of importance
Posts: 11,146
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hall of Fame Voter View Post
You know who would have impressed Tampa Bay area writers? Bob Lemon. Pitching to contact is a lost art.

Mussina always had trouble pitching at the Trop. If he can't handle Tampa, what makes us think he deserves Cooperstown?
This entirely brand new poster has promise.
Gary Wise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 11:45 AM   #128
Hollywade
Pooh-Bah
 
Hollywade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Down in my pluuums
Posts: 4,518
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcTiOnJaCsOn View Post
Verlander is kind of a choke artist in the big spots. The bigger the spot the worse he does. Kind of like kershaw/price.
He hasn't been good in the World Series, but I think any do-or-die game is a big spot. Check out his work in the Game 5s of 2012 and 2013 Division Series.
Hollywade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 12:26 PM   #129
EddyB66
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
EddyB66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 21,623
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by VarianceMinefield View Post
People have started to undervalue wins as a pitcher stat. You pitch to win the game. What the score is completely changes the type of pitches you will throw in what spot.

Thats not to say Porcello deserved to win, I did not compare the pitchers.
I do agree with this. I think some people view wins as a negative, like they couldn't possibly have done anything to deserve that win.

Not that it's the same, but I played catcher my first two years in college, and I don't think I ever called pitches based on the score, and don't think I have ever heard that in any of the camps I ever went to. Obviously not the same, maybe the big leagues are different.
EddyB66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 12:30 PM   #130
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 9,312
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

I guess it's kind of a classic "peak vs compiler" argument, but who do you think has a BETTER hall of fame case, Halladay or Mussina?
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 01:25 PM   #131
that_pope
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
that_pope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Casino AZ
Posts: 23,115
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Wise View Post
This entirely brand new poster has promise.
Brand new? Has had an account since 2014 and has two other posts, one baseball, one NBA.
that_pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 01:34 PM   #132
EddyB66
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
EddyB66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 21,623
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Eckleburg12 View Post
I guess it's kind of a classic "peak vs compiler" argument, but who do you think has a BETTER hall of fame case, Halladay or Mussina?
which one is the compiler?
EddyB66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 01:44 PM   #133
thebigeasy59
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
thebigeasy59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bringing Rain
Posts: 18,463
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

well Mussina pitched full seasons through age 39 and had a worse peak than Halladay, so...
thebigeasy59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 03:10 PM   #134
EddyB66
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
EddyB66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 21,623
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

oh ok, cause one had a 0 WAR in his last 2 seasons, and the other had a 5.2 in his last season, so I was confused.
EddyB66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 04:19 PM   #135
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 9,312
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

So I looked at some numbers.

IP FIP WHIP K/9 AS CY WS bWAR
Mussina 3652.2 3.57 1.223 7.1 5 0 0 82.7
Halladay 2749.1 3.39 1.178 6.9 8 2 0 65.6
K. Brown 3256.1 3.33 1.222 6.6 6 0 1 68.5

I include Kevin Brown because he had a Hall of Very Good career, got 2.1% of the vote his one year on the ballot, and dropped off into obscurity.

By almost every statistical measure, Kevin Brown was a vastly superior pitcher to, say, Jack Morris, but that's a whole other post. And he never sniffed the Hall.

I think the only thing that makes me lean Moose > Halladay in this exercise is giving Moose some credit for being in the AL East his whole career.

But my point is Mussina wasn't THAT much better than Kevin Brown.
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 04:20 PM   #136
PocketChads
guaranteed 42-10 finish
 
PocketChads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: am I super intelligent OH HELL NO
Posts: 20,723
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddyB66 View Post
I do agree with this. I think some people view wins as a negative, like they couldn't possibly have done anything to deserve that win.
This is a completely unfair characterization.

While it's true that a win is worth less than a no decision or a loss, it isn't so bad as to be a negative.
PocketChads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 04:24 PM   #137
PocketChads
guaranteed 42-10 finish
 
PocketChads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: am I super intelligent OH HELL NO
Posts: 20,723
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Eckleburg12 View Post
So I looked at some numbers.

IP FIP WHIP K/9 AS CY WS bWAR
Mussina 3652.2 3.57 1.223 7.1 5 0 0 82.7
Halladay 2749.1 3.39 1.178 6.9 8 2 0 65.6
K. Brown 3256.1 3.33 1.222 6.6 6 0 1 68.5

I include Kevin Brown because he had a Hall of Very Good career, got 2.1% of the vote his one year on the ballot, and dropped off into obscurity.

By almost every statistical measure, Kevin Brown was a vastly superior pitcher to, say, Jack Morris, but that's a whole other post. And he never sniffed the Hall.

I think the only thing that makes me lean Moose > Halladay in this exercise is giving Moose some credit for being in the AL East his whole career.

But my point is Mussina wasn't THAT much better than Kevin Brown.
20.7% more war in 12.2% more innings

Seems THAT much better to me
PocketChads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 05:03 PM   #138
tiltstermc
old hand
 
tiltstermc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,428
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Mussina has been trending upward in voting, up to 43.6%. Just looking at the 2016 voting, I guess Trevor Hoffman will probably get in next year. I hate to sound like Mad Dog Russo, but the guy never got a big out in his life lol.
tiltstermc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2016, 10:16 PM   #139
Heroball
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,112
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire Man View Post
TJ I think if they had both placed him 3rd then Verlander would have won. Tied if one was 3rd and the other was 4th.

Wish KB had gone unanimous but whatever. Got in debate with Cubs fan buddy today who said he wouldn't trade Russell, Javy, Almora Jr, Soler, and Montgomery for Trout. I would. No idea if $ etc works out, we were just talking.

Fist pump snap call trade for Cubs.
Heroball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 01:04 AM   #140
VarianceMinefield
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VarianceMinefield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eye Test Guy
Posts: 57,317
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddyB66 View Post
I do agree with this. I think some people view wins as a negative, like they couldn't possibly have done anything to deserve that win.

Not that it's the same, but I played catcher my first two years in college, and I don't think I ever called pitches based on the score, and don't think I have ever heard that in any of the camps I ever went to. Obviously not the same, maybe the big leagues are different.
It is not about pitch choice to me, it is more about the location change. A pitcher stops trying to paint the corners if they have a strong lead. You know as a reliever to never walk a guy when you have a 3 run lead. I am not saying a win is huge, I just think it is undervalued stat compared to the idea of worthless
VarianceMinefield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 03:41 AM   #141
ec_outlaw
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ec_outlaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 10,486
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

For those of you who somehow may have missed it, at 1 pm local time tomorrow, the Surprise Saguaros do battle with the Mesa Solar Sox for Arizona Fall League supremacy. This may be my only chance for quite some time of having my local team win a baseball championship, so let's go Saguaros! Do the damn thing!
ec_outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 03:44 AM   #142
that_pope
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
that_pope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Casino AZ
Posts: 23,115
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Sidebet?
that_pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 03:46 AM   #143
ec_outlaw
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ec_outlaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 10,486
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Absolutely. What did you have in mind?
ec_outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 03:48 AM   #144
that_pope
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
that_pope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Casino AZ
Posts: 23,115
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

You pick. I get the Mesa team.

$20
2 drinks at a Dbacks game
Dbacks tickets (for 1 of us) to a game next season
that_pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 03:54 AM   #145
ec_outlaw
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ec_outlaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 10,486
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Well duh you get the Mesa team. Ticket to a game(price point similar to my season tickets), and 2 of those wonderful $4 value beers. About a $20 value.
ec_outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 10:25 AM   #146
that_pope
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
that_pope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Casino AZ
Posts: 23,115
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Deal. We aren't doing the 10 game pass next season, so I'll be more likely to say yes if/when you invite me.
that_pope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 05:04 PM   #147
thebigeasy59
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
thebigeasy59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bringing Rain
Posts: 18,463
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Cecil to St. Louis. Enjoy him cards, he's awesome.
thebigeasy59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 07:06 PM   #148
TheNoodleMan
Wet Noodle
 
TheNoodleMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Too close to the baseline
Posts: 16,450
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by VarianceMinefield View Post
People have started to undervalue wins as a pitcher stat. You pitch to win the game. What the score is completely changes the type of pitches you will throw in what spot.

Thats not to say Porcello deserved to win, I did not compare the pitchers.
Just for the sake of argument, over the course of 200 innings, how often do you think this is happening?
TheNoodleMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2016, 07:16 PM   #149
VarianceMinefield
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VarianceMinefield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eye Test Guy
Posts: 57,317
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoodleMan View Post
Just for the sake of argument, over the course of 200 innings, how often do you think this is happening?
Every pitch and location could be different depending on the score and situation. Anytime you have a 3 run lead and a guy at a 2-0 count, it is highly likely to be a fastball in zone.

Not sure here is really an argument here. I have played plenty of MLB the show to not only understand a lot of situational baseball, but I have some up with ways to increase equity that I have never seen teams do.

Wins should not determine CY young, as I think I need to make that clear again to you guys, but it does matter getting the win and people should pitch different and defenses shift differently depending on the score.

Every stat that goes into a game is to try to accomplish a win, you are not trying to accomplish the lowest exist velocity off your pitches or the highest strike out rate

VarianceMinefield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2016, 02:57 PM   #150
thebigeasy59
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
thebigeasy59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bringing Rain
Posts: 18,463
Re: Official all-things-MLB-Offseason thread

I much prefer "can not play with em. can not win with em. can not coach with em can't do it."
thebigeasy59 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online