Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Wise
Hall of fame thought for discussion. I'm going to ask that you ignore steroids for the moment.
Manny Ramirez totaled 66.3 WAR for his career, which is likely enough to make him a surefire eventual HoFer, roids aside. He did this despite abysmal defense, both by the eye test and statistically (-276.6 Defensive value on Fangraphs). Thing is, with his defense that bad, it could be argued that a) he should have been a DH for the majority of his career and b) it was a teambuilding flaw that he and David Ortiz were on the same roster, necessitating Manny's playing the field. With that being the case, he's being credited with negative performance defense that's not entirely his own fault (at least shared with management).
Would you be inclined to give Manny some benefit of the doubt if your OF WAR standard for HoF was, say, 70 WAR?
It seems crazy to me that Ortiz is sure-fire HOF and Manny wouldn't be (if we ignore steroids for both), despite that fact that Manny is clearly the better player. He was a much better hitter (in about the same number of PAs). The knock against Manny is he was bad at defense, but as you point out that should be less of a knock against him than Ortiz.
Don't see what Ortiz has over Manny - other than people seeing him as more likable.
As for your question if I give him bonus points for not getting to play DH, I'm not sure I would. I would value players as they played, not how they perhaps should have been played.