Look at cycling. In the 90s there was little control on the doping, it raged out of control, and one man completely dominated. Not everyone is prepared to go to Pantani/Armstrong levels and do their own blood transfusions in the team van. Later cycling instituted the biological passport and there were legal crackdowns, and while they all still dope, it's in a milder, more controlled way, and the average speeds and the times on the biggest climbs in the grand tours are down compared to the mid 90s.

In basketball it's the same. Not everyone is on the full superman regime like LeBron.

Not everyone responds to doping in the same ways. Armstrong is good example. He went from a mid tier domestique to super world unbeatable because of doping. Contador, for example, is different. He's a contender for the title completely undoped, and the doping just helps seal the deal. Bolt's fast even if he's hungover and runs his worst time since he was 12, like last week, but Tyson Gay ...

Nique was not a superstar of the highest order

He was never in that realm, just a level or so below

People can make an argument the handchecking would be a significant impediment for Curry, CP3, Harden, Westbrook and the other new stars of the pace and space era. If they played with the rules how they were back then with illegal defense/handchecing then we might see a reorganization of the leagues top players.

However, LeBron would completely dominate with illegal defense rules. He would just post up from the left side and back his way in. You can't "dig in" defensively because its illegal D and if you go with a full double he is just going to pick you apart passing. As long as the team could space effectively there would basically be no way to stop this. It would be like '87 Magic on roids (maybe literally)

It would be awful to watch but it is what it is.

When you're taking about primary ball handlers; PNR is PNR

Stockton was able to flourish during hand check era bc they weren't iso'ing

Bron would be able to flourish in both PNR and what you're bringing up tho, you're right

Further indicating he's the best player ever. Always said a combo of Magic and Dr. J. For the last couple years of his Miami run when he was hitting jumpers even that wasn't fair enough to his greatness.

You could be more physical and restrict their movement with handchecking though. How much? Tough to say but I think you certainly could and if it was the players today you probably could a decent amount. A lot of these guys with their foot speed would likely be sick defenders if you added handchecking to their repertoire.


Then by reoganization I just mean throwing the ball into a guy that can't be doubled or schemed as easily is going to give post players more value and thus make it less of a guards game.

Going to make a point about Bron as the primary ball-handler on the perimeter, not countering anything that you're bringing up bc you're right. I know what they used to be able to do w/ MJ and Barkley.

Even if they played it straight up Bron muscles right through those fools imo. I think it was Ira Newble who was talking about facing teenage Bron and figuring he was gonna be able to hound him in practice before he'd faced him, disrupt his handle and maybe get a steal or two. Uh, no. Too big, too strong, that handle was/is insane.1

Just addressing this because the other point you made I understood and agreed with. You might not have seen the agreement bc I think I ninja edited and you only quoted my 1st draft before. Maybe not, but I digress.

PNR counteracts almost all of that unless they're literally grabbing you on the way by. If you've got the bigs they have today who can screen and dive and put the ball in CP3, Ty, Teague, etc hands I think hand checking would really not effect things to the degree you're imagining.

That was my point, the only guys that really ran routine PNR were Utah and I dunno maybe GP/Kemp and a few others and even of them it wasn't the same type of staple. The bigs just didn't have the athleticism of today's guys. Even if it's crowded down there you can always get an open look for one of 3 parties.

Yeah I'm not sure how much it would effect it. It has become such a guard heavy game, some of that is optimization and evolution but I think some of it is also steered by the rule changes. As we saw in G5 and so many other times, they ref the post much differently than the perimeter which is a big reason the game gravitated that way over time. Avoiding physicality and plays involving physicality would seem to favor the offense and that is what giving the guards the ball does.


Don't forget in '04-05 PnR and offensive efficiency in general skyrocketed after they completely oulawed handchecking.

You're right though most of the bigs were slow as **** then and couldn't aggressively jumpout to screen as well as guys can now.

the answer is MJ. not even close, but not gonna participate in a poll that is so poorly constructed.

Lebron is very good, but he could be so much better. He is just too damn bulky. If he was 30 lbs lighter....

-his stamina would be so much better
-he wouldn't get clowned on defense so bad. when he gets wrong-footed by someone driving with a Eurostep move, or a step back J, he looks awful. but the problem is that he is just too heavy to recover quickly. MJ never had that problem.
-less injuries. He only has about 2 more years left. by 34, he won't even sniff an all star roster.
-with better stamina, he could drive the paint more and create more room for a pop up J. Michael used to kill teams with that midrange jumper, just because they were so on guard for him to attack the rim at any time. Lebron can't do that.

"superstar talent" not "superstar". He lacked something for leading a team. But the athletic talent and skill he had were comparable with what Jordan had. He just didn't use it as well, although he is a top 15 all time per game scorer, comparable to guys like Kobe and Bird. I always had the impression he just wasn't comparably smart as a player as he was talented.

he did have one good year where he was knocking down midrange consistently, but it was kind of a fluke. if he was 30 pounds lighter he would lose his greatest strength, lowering his shoulder and bulldozing his way down the lane. he doesnt have the ballhandling/shooting like MJ/Durant to be effective at that weight

I'd s snap take current LeBron at 260-265lbs over 230-235lbs

Lock it up

Crunch time on NBA's biggest stage in Finals... don't worry, Lebron will step up strong as usual in these situations and pad those rebound numbers! He's a force that just can't be stopped when he puts his mind to it!!!

Change thread title to Kobe vs. LeBron discussion. It's a little closer.

James poured in a massive 1/6th of his team's 4th quarter points, but alas the heroic effort fell short.

The DOG has a lot of heart knowing that there's about a 95% chance his long posts will be wiped away

I wish I was as passionate about anything as twog is about nostalgia

those gifs show exactly why I believe MJ>LBJ, and its not even close. Jordan was the best athlete in the NBA. Look how quick his feet are. Look at the separation he could get from athleticism.

LBJ is so strong, he just turns his back to the defender and pushed them backwards with his butt or shoulder (which should be an offensive foul). Yes I believe the last 2 gifts is post 2343 are offensive fouls. The problem is his feet are too slow and flat, which prevents him from getting the needed separation. He is a beast of a ball player but very boring to watch and not as dominant as advertised (especially with championships on the line).

To me a more interesting question is. Duncan or LBJ. Looking at their careers up till now. If they are in the same draft. I think I draft Duncan before LBJ.

It's weird seeing old Jordan highlights sometimes. Just jarring how garbage the comp was that he went against.

Great player but jeez he ran good.

Would easily take Duncan over LBJ. TD would be 3-0 in finals vs Lebron if Pop had left him in the end of game 6 to rebound the King's BRICK.

Which specific examples?

Also, how do you "run good" while requiring a second hand to display all of your championship rings?

mario chalmers makes a great point. Though, it's weird he chose that name to make these 3 posts. Still pissed that LeBron flew the coop in Miami?

I never saw a Bulls' game where Michael Jordan wasn't double-teamed. Teams triple-teaming him on key possessions spawned the careers of John Paxson and Steve Kerr.

His athletic superiority over his competition had a lot to do with the time period he played in. Being the first of your kind tends to do that. Also, because of expansion the teams were watered down in his era since it was before international play and the league just grew by 7 teams ovenight. This meant he was in a league where the best player had more of a value to his team than now.

Also, the Bulls were able to deal Perdue for Rodman and Polynice for Pippen, these were some heists.

Only someone who doesn't remember James Worthy or Dominique Wilkins or Hakeem Olajuwon or Julius Erving or Elgin Baylor or etc. would write that.