Bron is a basketball prophet; he knew how to win as a teen.

He was drafted and remained on a team with a trash roster. If he ended up on a team like Magic or Bird he's champing as a rook and has more than six atm.

Your whole paradigm is Jordan, there's more to basketball than The Passion of the Mike. Many paths to basketball nirvana, not just his route.

Jordan had the goat steal on Karl Malone right before he hit the game-winner over Russell - so the only reason the goat steal wasn't Jordan's best play was because he actually had game-winners on the championship level, while Lebron doesn't... if Lebron had game-winners on the Finals level, those winners would push down the defensive plays just like Jordan's goat steal was pushed down... (btw that steal had everything including Karl crashing to the ground).




The idea that despite Jordan being unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star in Pippen, he somehow couldn't win elsewhere with the many rich man's Pippen's that everyone else enjoyed is just a horrible false argument - you're using against Jordan the fact that he was good enough to win with the first all-star he ever received and never needed another one..

Again, that's a horrible, false argument..

Otoh, the reality that we know to be fact is that Lebron is extremely beatable regardless of cast by virtue of never having a cast that he mostly won titles with for any stretch - he isn't capable of having a team that mostly wins regardless of cast.. 21 years confirms that he can't 3-peat or have dynasty or win 70 with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ (and others)




None of the arguments used for MJ could be argued that they were actually bad things that caused loss, thereby nullifying the argument entirely.. This is because all of MJ's arguments are tied to his winning.. The stuff he did in losses normally isn't praised... The only exception might be the 63-point game where he was forced to carry the verifiably worst playoff cast ever (30-win team) to double OT against the goat opponent.

Accordingly, anything that doesn't yield a win is irrelevant or even bad, such as a triple-double that yielded the biggest loss of all-time (record loss).. Lebron's triple-double in the 17' Finals required record hold-time (ball-dominance) that yielded record deficit in team assists and record loss..

Any record loss that occurs with 2 all-star teammates and a sidekick that already outplayed the opponents' sidekick in the prior year qualifies as goat underachievement.. It's just a horrible thing to use as a primary argument for goat

This was one of your primary arguments and it's complete dogshit on it's face, not to mention that MJ (or anyone) could get a couple more rebounds to achieve a triple double in the Finals so they could lose by record amount..

Jordan could've averaged less than 41 ppg in the 93' Finals so that he could get 1 more rebound and 4 more assists but then the Bulls would've lost - Pippen couldn't handle more load at 46% true-shooting while both the Bulls/Suns averaged exactly 106.7 and 113.0 ortg, so all of Jordan's points were needed.

Yeah that's the point - Jamison wasn't that great so he fits right in with Klay, Murray, Middleton and Pippen - these guys were the caliber of cast used by Curry, Jokic, Giannis and MJ to achieve organic juggernauts/league favorites by Year 7.. Lebron was on this track in 2010 but he gave up and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development, and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

It's insanely easy to win a conference if you take the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team (the "decision") - only then did the Finals streak begin, otherwise he was a 1-trick pony like Iverson, Dwight or Kidd.. And Lebron teamed up with the next-best player or producer in the league - Wade was #2 across the board in 2010 so that's like Magic teaming up with Bird.

It's like you think people will forget about what actually happened and believe your delusion instead. It's amazing in an age of google




The 15' Warriors were 1st-timers that barely beat an injured Cavs team, while the 98' Jazz were a long-standing organic juggernaut that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan/Robinson...

So there is no chance the pre-KD warriors were as good as the Jazz - we already know that the Jazz 2nd and 3rd options (Stockton &: Hornacek) have FAR HIGHER production rates across the board than Klay (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, efficiency), while also having a superior frontcourt.

And the 14' Spurs only won 58 games.... People don't realize that Jordan's Finals opponents were all juggernauts and freight trains such as the 93' Suns - but they simply didn't look that formidable once it was time to face the Bulls.. The Heat should've dimmed the Spurs' star by being 60-70 win juggernaut but Lebron-ball isn't capable of unbeatable teams or reams that mostly win titles, or perennial favorite on the Finals level... it's just too crappy a brand and chemistry to achieve such a goat caliber of basketball that Jordan achieved.




And he was extremely beatable with every cast.. he never had a stretch where he mostly won with any cast.

He always had underwhelming teams, weak records and perennial underdog on the Finals level (low team ceiling) with EVERY CAST

Accordingly, 21 years confirms that he isn't capable of 3-peat, unbeatable teams, dynasty or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ

Btw, Lebron got to refresh old casts every 4:years with the best young studs in the league, so he never deals with aging casts and stars like MJ did.





How was he down 1-3 against a tired team???? .... KD being up 3-1 with Westbrick against a fresh team is more impressive ..

Obviously KD still lost because no one wins with Westbrick - but KD did better with Westbrick than anyone else and far better than Lebron, which is a major argument for KD > Lebron.

Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get 3-1 deficit and needed his sidekick to outplay the league MVP to win series... show me where Pippen went to the 93' Finals and outplayed Barkley or Malone...

Ultimately, Lebron needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).

^^^ complete bs that you're making up

Lebron entered the league and was immediately lottery for 2 years despite having all-star teammate.

So he didn't know how to win anything and needed all-star teammate to win 40 games.

He waited 3 years to develop favored high seed before entering 06' Playoffs - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach, top defenses and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition to make the 06' Playoffs.

You say that Lebron had bad teams but his first playoff teams were 3rd-year team and favored high seeds, which can't be compared to Year 1 eight seeds that Jordan had as a rookie... Jordan didn't get 3 years before entering his 1st playoffs...

Btw, 05' Hughes was far better than 90' Pippen across the board and Lebron had the East all-star center too, so MJ would easily 3-peat with that.. But Lebron averaged 22 on 36% vs Spurs, so that's a black mark compared to 22-year Amare vs 05' Spurs (37 on 55%), or 20-year Magic winning FMVP, or 23-year Jordan setting PO scoring record vs goat team... 23-year Lebron was locked up vs 08 Celts too - 26 on 35%

So you just don't know the history

The steal on Malone was nice, but it was a game 6 and there are levels to these things: LeBron crashing down the full length of the court to perfectly time The Block is what it is.


Unfortunately we have to deal in the reality of what happened. And what happened is Mike went to Washington, was the GM for two seasons and then added himself on a minimum with a coach of his choosing. And he couldn't get it done. It's a shame he didn't play on in 99, but he didn't. LeBron did go three different places and title each time, these are the facts.

I mean lol man, there's an edge to the difference of these things that can be explained by variance and context. LeBron and Miami went to 4 straight Finals, then LeBron and the Cavs went to 4 straight. They should have won in 2011 if LeBron had met the moment; but from there it's pretty simple:

- The Spurs played beautiful basketball in 2014, and Wade and Bosh were coming to the end;
- Kyrie and Love were injured in 2015;
- Durant had joined the Warriors after 2016, making them unbeatable

"Extremely beatable", lol. Again, this is the "Passion of the Mike" nonsense, as Dodger coined above beautifully. Turns out the context of basketball was completely different 20 years later.



I dunno man, LeBron playing out of his mind against literally the greatest team ever assembled is pretty relevant. Again, you clearly can't comprehend or don't understand for some reason how good that Warriors team was. Beyond transforming how the game is played, they just had so much sheer talent on the floor. The 2017 series was remarkable for it being 'one of them will get ya in the end' every night. The showtime Lakers, the 72 win Bulls, the 2014 Spurs - all great teams. But that 2017 Warriors team stands alone imo (and I'd say there are lots and lots out there who agree with me!).

Jordan could have averaged triple doubles, he could have played numerous positions, he could have won elsewhere in 99, he could have broken Kareem's scoring record...except he didn't do any of those things. It's not MJ's fault he didn't do things, he didn't have to. But that's the nature of human progress, someone will always come along and do it better.

I mean Wemby is entering the league as LeBron leaves it, and there's every chance he has the goatest peak based on his rookie season. And eventually - even if I don't live to see it - someone will eventually come along and put together a better cumulative career than LeBron.

This is how humanity has always worked - things evolve and in the vast majority of cases they improve. You want to believe it will always be Jordan, or that if it the player isn't just like Mike or the era isn't just like the 90's it can't be better. You are just an old man, and you are wrong. Like all the old men before you.

Lovely way of phrasing it imo

If Lebron had game-winners on the Finals level, those winners would push down the defensive plays just like Jordan's goat steal was pushed down.

So again, Jordan had far better plays by having goat plays on both ends of the floor




The facts are that 1/4 with AD is a joke and nowhere near GOAT caliber

The facts are that 1/4 with Love is a joke and nowhere near GOAT caliber

The facts are that 2/4 with Wade is the biggest joke of all and nowhere near GOAT caliber

Otoh, Jordan was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star, which is why he's goat

And no one cares what MJ did at 40 without AD or every GM in the league stacking his team.. there's NO WAY that Jordan would be the 9 seed with this stacked Lakers team




You're saying that Lebron teamed up with the next-best player in the league and made 4 straight Finals?

You think that's goat-caliber?

It would only be goat-caliber if he won all 4, but instead he was 2/4 including goat choke and record loss..

That's the worst anyone could do




Jordan won with old Pippen shooting worse than anyone ever has (literally), so why can't Lebron win with old Wade and prime Bosh?

So that's no excuse at all - your inability to provide a real reason for the record defeat confirms that Lebron is simply inferior - that's why he failed to 3-peat and MJ succeeded..

Lebron wasn't good enough to fit with Bosh and get the most out of him, while also being unable to average 41 like M - Lebron failed to 3-peat and lost by 13 ppg because he averaged 13 less than MJ's 3-peat in 93' (28 to 41 ppg).




Definition of "extremely beatable regardless of cast":

2007- swept & locked up

2008- locked up

2009 - upset loss to 1-star team

2010 - upset loss meltdown

2011 - upset loss meltdown

2014 - record loss

2017 - record loss

2018 - record loss (swept)

2019 - lottery in prime

2021 - 1st Round loss

2022 - missed play-in with 2 top 75 teammate (goat underachievement)

2023 - swept again

^^^ extremely beatable regardless of cast

Worst championship record regardless of cast

Perennial underdog on Finals level regardless of cast

Never a stretch of mostly winning titles - mostly loses regardless of cast





Many guys played better against goat teams...

Jordan averaged 44/6/6 vs goat team in 86'

He lost by similar amount as the 17 Cavs despite carrying the worst playoff cast ever, while Lebron had 2 all-star teammates and defending champion cast

Again, luka-balling your way to record loss isn't impressive





If KD made the Warriors that good then that's why he adds more title equity than Bron and is therefore superior - KD can have unbeatable teams that cannot lose Finals, while Lebron has the worst losing Finals records regardless of cast...

If one guy yields perennial Finals loser and the other yields perennial winners on the championship level, then it's clear who provides more title equity in the long run... You can add KD to a team and be unbeatable (run off a bunch of titles), but you can't with Bron and Bron-ball.




It wasn't just the KD Warriors - Lebron has lottery records against the Spurs, Nuggets, Magic or Mavs - they all destroyed Lebron in his prime..

And cut the crap about the 14' Spurs - they only won 58 games and the odds were even heading into the series, yet record loss occurred... Lebron and Wade were mad at Duncan for predicting victory.




Weak fits with many players confurns that Lebron never played 5 positions.. He's only played a point guard role for his entire career and could never score 36k points as the roll man like Karl Malone for example.. Lebron can only play a point guard role and it's hindered chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, so he can't win as much.

And Lebron never dominated like Jordan based on production rate or winning.. He never won dpoy or was scoring champ and 1st team defense.. Lebron never had this caliber of 2-way dominance..

And Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load like MJ meant that he needed more star help - needing more help makes him inferior, especially when he mostly loses with every cast.

So you're completely delusional I'm thinking Lebron has done it better by dominating less, stat-padding via luka-balling but still having lower production rates than MJ, and of course needing more help but still losing much more and more than anyone ever has.. it's looney tunes




No one has more bad losses than Lebron such as sweep losses, upset losses, record losses, getting locked up in loss, or worst-ever championship record.. or losing with preseason favorites, or with multiple all-star teammates, or with 1 or 2 seeds..

So Lebron is the biggest loser in history - he had a bad career but it's misreported on as good... he barely won a few titles by stacking the deck and still managed to be the biggest loser ever, aka more bad losses than anyone ever... Mostly losing regardless of cast

“LeBron is the biggest loser in history”

TWOG, ladies and gentlemen.

In the history of 3-pointer basketball, name someone with more bad losses such as upset losses, sweep losses, record losses, locked up in a loss, losing with 2 all-star teammates or a worst-ever championship record.

I'll wait

How can the player with more bad losses than anyone in history to many different opponents and the worst championship record in modern history be considered a "winner"???

Dodger just said that Lebron knew how to win as a teenager except he lost as the massive favorite in HS and then lost with literally the biggest talent edge to ever lose in 04' Olympics and 06' World Games, which bookended 2 lotteries despite having all-star teammate in 04/05.

So the biggest weakness of Lebron's game (winning capability) is lied about by Lebron fans by literally PRETENDING he's a winner despite having the biggest losing record ever.. It's amazing the delusion that people are willing to grasp so they can say they saw the best ever.

There's no such delusion with Jordan because we can point to goat dominance and goat winning to support our goat claim... meanwhile, lebron fans must pretend that the goat losing record is actually a goat winning one.. it's an amazing fraud perpetrated on the public
.

If Jokic teamed up with AD and went 1/4, no one would say that's goat

or if he went 2/4 with Curry, or 1/4 with Love...

It sounds absurd even saying "if Jokic teamed up with xxx"... how could someone that stacks the deck by teaming up with opposing franchise players be considered goat, even without considering that he mostly loses after stacking the deck.. it's absurd

Mostly losing after stacking the deck isn't anywhere near a goat career or goat caliber basketball

So everyone is just LYING about lebron.. he's the biggest fraud in sports history - a bum that mostly loses regardless of cast

You think Pippen is a replaceable piece, and that the rest of the Bulls roster was garbage and then assume that any roster with 1 good player is guaranteed title

You use trash like Hughes, Jamison often, think 2014 Wade/Bosh were top 10 guys, think Kevin Love is a star, that coaching doesn't matter, etc

Is this fallguy real or some AI prank?

I can only imagine he is in these same debates in 14 other online forums, spending 12 hours a day finding ways to make LeBron look bad.

Sick life.

I assume TWOG regularly loses his composure in all of these various debates too, like he just has above. 'LeBron is a fraud, a bum, a loser.' It's all so personal for him. The mere existence of opposition to his world view, his creed of MJ, ENRAGES him.

no offense but you guys are all lunatics

How many forums are you posting your copy-pasta in that you didn't realize you replied to me twice?

You clearly have a deep pathological hatred for LeBron James that's causing you a lot of issues. It's really unhealthy man. Imagine making hatred of a celebrity your hobby. Don't you have anything better?

Yeah that's the point - Jamison wasn't some elite-producing sidekick like Kareem, AD or Wade, so he fits right in with Klay, Murray, Middleton and Pippen - these guys were the caliber of cast used by Curry, Jokic, Giannis and MJ to achieve organic juggernauts/league favorites by Year 7.. Lebron was on this track in 2010 but he gave up and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development, and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

I just replied a 3rd time to drive the point home

Lebron gave up in 2010 on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development, and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

If course it's personal because Lebron's own teammates like Chalmers and Shumpert said that Lebron ruined the game of basketball by teaming up - their words, not mine.

So you can ignore me but his own teammates are stating the obvious historical record.

Wade himself conceded that after Kobe got #5, Lebron and Wade immediately got on the phone to plan the collusions and this was while Kobe was still on the court celebrating!!!

So yes, Lebron is a "bum" and a "loser" that mostly lost after forming super-teams, while MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star... It's so obvious who is far superior..

And now Lebron is paying minions to go out there and trash the 90"s???... yeah f*ck this guy.. He's a colluding loser and beta

I'm honestly waiting for this bum to retire so the media can cover the game more objectively like they used to instead of clamoring for some opposing GM to bail out Lebron with a trade deadline miracle.. Of course the refs give his team a historic FT advantage... The entire league helps him yet he still mostly loses.. It's pathetic.. get this bum and loser out of my face and off my TV

By that logic Magic Johnson never learned to win "organically" because he was drafted into the Lakers who already had the best player in the world. We needed to see him drafted by the Clippers to see how he'd do.

The whole winning "organically" is just arbitrary bullshit that you came up with, with no real meaning. Just like "expert jumpshooter" is also arbitrary bullshit with no real meaning. Your two favorite terms.

The problem with your "analysis" is that you're starting from a position of personal hatred for LeBron James. Nothing you say has any objective value.

Now he's just furiously replying multiple times hoping it gives him more credibility.

It does the opposite. Another TWOG meltdown.

lmfao here is fallguy on another forum having a meltdown 2 years ago over LeBron:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...all-of-society

You're just upset that we are dunking on fallguy over and over and over at our pleasure so you want to "both sides" this by calling us lunatics.


Your hero fallguy has been banned over 20x on this forum alone and has invested 100 000+ posts on this topic, meanwhile I spend about 10-15 mins a week on this subject. Hardly an investment of time and energy.


You, All black dan, Hellmuth was right, Matt R. and a bunch of other Jordan stans are wincing in pain watching fallguy getting lashed here.

anyone else just click on this thread to practice scrolling and look for gifs?

today was a good day for those