I assume that LeBron's 2013 chip is invalid because the same crews came back and Spurs won in 2014.

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Magic could only shoot well at 5 attempts (game 1).. anything higher and he barely shot 40%

So no, Magic wasn't good in the 1991 Finals and that's why he was blown away despite a more productive supporting cast..

A severely hobbled Worthy nearly matched Pippen, while Vlade (18/9) destroyed Grant, and Perkins (17/9) destroyed Paxson..

Infact, 3 Lakers cast members nearly matched Pippen (Worthy/Vlade/Perkins).




^^^ the weakest playoff peak ever, for otherwise the worst playoff performer ever, given his stature

Pippen only had 2 playoff runs that were non-horrible and 1991 was one of them (even though his dumb foul on Vlade in Game 3 nearly choked away the season).

His other non-horrible playoffs was 92', although his 16 on 40% caused an unexpected 7 game series and near-loss to the Knicks that year (ragdolled by X-man).

and these are pippen's BEST playoffs of his career..... lol




Pippen had a 2.0 BPM in the 93' Playoffs and was lower than 13' Wade across the board (BPM, VORP, PER, WS/48) - he also had lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade.

Then he choked against Ewing in the 94' Playoffs, while Kukoc led in the team in playoff BPM and 3 teammates led in WS/48.

Then he averaged 19 on 40% in the 95' ECSF and 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs, while retiring with 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs.

So Pippen is easily the worst playoff performer of all-time and the 91/92 Playoffs are his only non-horrible playoffs (and even those playoffs had pippen chokes, aka vlade dumb foul and x-man ragdolling him)




Notice how Pippen went off in the only game he didn't have to guard Worthy or Magic (game 5).. Whereas Jordan was going off the whole time while locking down Magic, Scott, Worthy, and Vlade.. only Vlade got the better of Jordan.




Pippen's offense was better in the 1 game where he didn't have to guard Worthy or Magic because that's how the game works - players have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends of the floor - so increased efforts defensively reduce the capacity for offense, and vice versa... (scattered defenses that are on their heels create tired legs and reduce optimism, which causes cold shooting and weaker finishing).. It's a battle of attrition.

Unfortunately, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance (2 point guard lineups) lose this attrition battle on the championship level.. His ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go of offensively.. See the 2014 Finals, where the Heat underperformed their 3-peat expectation by record amount.

Lebron averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of the 2013 Finals while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit

Furthermore, his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games, thus needing Ray Allen to force Game 7.. This is significant because he probably would've won in 6 games if he averaged 27 on 42% (Jordan's worst in 96').

Overall, Lebron was a net negative for the series (the Heat lost with him on the floor), so his FMVP should be invalidated.

Furthermore, it's well-documented that the Spurs specifically exploited the bad fit between Lebron and Wade - defenders were coming off one guy to help on the other guy's drives, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).. So Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination hurt his fit with Wade and ability to compete with the Spurs.. SB Nation documents the Spurs exploiting them here.

Finally, Lebron only averaged 25 in this series and only 5 more than Wade.. So it was a non-dominant shared load (plus ray allen) and therefore nowhere near any of Jordan's rings.
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Game 4.
Lakers in theory had a chance to draw this series the next year, but Magic of course retired due to his illness putting an end to that.

Iggy locked Lebron down, so Jordan would completely shut him down

I don't see any other way to look at it.

Jordan is the same size as Iggy but quicker, more athletic and simply a far better defender.

Furthermore, Lebron has massive holes in his game that are exploitable, like his jumpshot (exploited numerous times successfully, aka 07', 13', 15' Finals), and his ball-dominance/predictability... and the tracking stats began in 2014, which show that he doesn't take contested jumpshots (defers to teammates).

So the idea that Jordan would have problems with him is laughable.. The only thing that would shut me up is an elite post game coupled with an aggressive mentality, or elite jumpshooting skill... None of which Lebron has lol... Look at those gifs - does anyone even have to guard that?.. ugh (those gifs are from 1 half of 1 game btw)
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Really the Bulls in 91 having finally ascended past GOAT candidate Pistons were not clearly the best team, them a dynasty arriving and the Lakers on the downside of their dynasty?? I beg to differ. Play the 91 finals 100 times, Bulls win it very close to 100 times.

Pippen wasn't a good player in playoffs? Reminds me of expecting stats in baseball postseason or win % in NFL playoffs to rival regular season, i.e. Peyton Manning sucks in playoffs argument. Regular season is for show and stats, postseason is whole new balling game.

All those newfangled stats really make me laugh. We arrive at Pippen sucks and the Bulls dynasty sucks. LOL very much. Stats ain't da truth.

I just watched game 1 of the 1991 finals.

Jordan was the best player on the court, but Lebron would've looked like a cyborg from a future if he played in that game. And Mr. Clutch Jordan missed an open look to win the game.

The level of play in the NBA has risen tremendously since then.

Pippen's 45% true shooting in the 1993 Finals forced Jordan to average 41, while his poor defense is why the series was extended to 6 games.. In Game 6, he had zero points in 4th quarter while Jordan had every point except the Paxson shot.

Again, Pippen was bad in every playoffs except 91/92, and even those runs had times when Pippen nearly lost it for the team (dumb foul on Vlade in Game 3, and then getting rag-dolled by X-man in 92' nearly caused loss)
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If Paul George was bad for his performance against Denver, then how is Pippen good??

GEORGE 20' ECSF........'....... 21.7... 5.4... 3.6... 58.7 ts

PIPPEN 96-98' PLAYOFFS...... 17.6... 7.4... 5.0... 50.0 ts

1st three-peat Pippen was only marginally better than PG's Denver performance:

PIPPEN 91-93' PLAYOFFS........ 20.0... 8.3... 6.0... 53.6 ts

Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs in his entire career (bolded below):

1988..... 10 ppg

1989..... 13 ppg

1990..... migraine choke cost bulls title (16 on 42% in ECF)

1991..... solid

1992..... mostly solid (92' ecsf)

1993..... 2.0 BPM and below 13' Wade across the board (BPM, VORP, PER, WS/48) - he also had lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade.. 45% TS in the Finals and poor defense allowed Game 6

1994..... choked vs Knicks (21.7 on 40%).. Kukoc led team in playoff BPM.. 3 teammates led WS/48

1995..... choked vs Magic (19 on 40%)

96-98'.... 17.6 on 41%

99-03'.... 14 on 41%

TLDR: Pippen usually played worse than Paul George did against Denver last year - but Pippen was never knocked because only 1 guy was held responsible for Bulls wins (Jordan) - it was considered a 1-man team.. Everyone else including Pippen was treated like a role player where no one noticed or tracked how he was playing or knocked him for bad performance.. He got the occasional "player appreciation" coverage from the media and was blindly given accolades due to the winning spotlight, but otherwise he was mostly ignored and his performance never analyzed.
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Well I guess we can go game by game for all the series he played against Iggy to see what you mean by "locked down"...Lebron did average more points and rebounds and the same assists when he faced iggy in his career, but let's look at all the finals games...

2015 Game 1: Lebron 16-30 from 2. Little cold from 3, 2-8. So his effective FG% was 50%. 44 points 8 rebs 6 assists. Is that locked down?

Looking at Jordan's last 6 playoff runs that ended in 5 rings, Jordan shot
about FG% .480.
With an Efg% under .500 total and just looking at his last 3 rings he was eFG% of .490, .469 and .474 (remember how we learned that shooting .33 from 3 is the same as shooting .500 from 2)...this cannot possibly be "locked down". Lebron shot the ball at a much higher percentage in this game than Jordan typically did in the playoffs. 44 points...that's a bunch!

Pretty shocking Jordan shot so bad his last 3 playoff runs. In 2015 the average team eFG% was .500, now...jeez every team but Orlando over .500...so Jordan at .490, .469. and .474...granted it was a different era.

It's asking too much of anyone to have a GOAT career than spans different eras...

So game 2, Lebron was playing the first of the series without Kyrie. They lined up Della, TT, Shumpert and Mosgov vs the 67 win Warriors with the best defense in the NBA.

And yes, Lebron shot poorly. Took 35 shots to score 39 points. Drew a ton of fouls 14-18 FT. That helps. Team shot 40FT to 25 for GSW. Lot of foul trouble for Warriors as you can imagine. Hit 3-6 from 3. 39 16 (4 offensive) 11 assists in a victory.

I really doubt if Lebron was truly locked down, that crew that the Cavs rolled out would have beaten the Warriors at home. The shooting numbers are what they are...but Lebron scored almost half his teams points in a victory vs. a great team. He assisted or scored every point, basically. I think they might have been focused on him as a team a bit there, as opposed to Iggy "Locking him down".

TT 0-5, Shump 2-11, JR 5-13, Della 3-10. Thanks for the help guys!

game 3. 14-34 fg, 3-6 3fg, 10-12 ft. 40 points, 12 reb, 8 assist (and 4 steals 2 blocks)...ok well Jordan scored 28 on 23 shots game 5 in 1991, so is 40 on 34 shots "locked down"?

He did enough to win. Dellavadova was 7-17. Nobody else made more than 4fg. He is only human. Somebody has to get almost all the points, assists, rebounds, steals, FT. I think when your stats sheet reads * * * * across the board, and when you look below and it says "* All of them". and you beat the Warriors...that isn't being "locked down".

Lebron had 14 in the 4th, rest of team...10. Got it done. Got the W. Clutch game. Gutsy game. Staved off a furious rally from GSW led by Curry with 17 in the quarter. Makes one wonder why iggy didnt just lock him down. Reading this box score makes me exhausted for Lebron.

Worst Playoff efg

LEBRON...... 44% (2007)... 44% (2008)... 44% (2015)
JORDAN...... 43% (1985)... 44% (1987)... 47% (1997)


Lebron's shot badly on deep Finals runs, while Jordan never shot as badly on runs past the 1st Round, despite playing in an era where overall efg was much lower because of the suboptimal allocation between two's and threes.

And that's the problem with efg - it's era-dependent because today's era takes more advantage of the 3-point line and therefore has much higher efg..

If Lebron played in the 90's without today's 3-point strategy, he would shoot horrifically on the shots guys were forced to take back then (contested mid-range).. It was a tougher game without the spacing for easy shot allocations, so guys were superior contested shot-makers.

Furthermore, Lebron enjoys higher shooting efficiency because more of his shots are at the rim - but this requires ball-dominance and less ball-movement, while Jordan's superior jumpshooting allowed off-ball play and therefore greater ball movement, team assists, teammate maximization/fit, team ceilings and ultimately, Finals records..

Btw, we know that Lebron avoids contested jumpshots and defers the tough shots to teammates.. So that obviously differs from MJ and his goat clutch standard..

Finally, shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency, where Jordan's was higher due to lower turnovers

So, I will stop here and ask, which game so far was Lebron locked down? The 44 point game where he shot .500? The 39 16 11 victory on the road? or the 40 point 12 and 8, 4steal 2 block victory where he scored 14 vs 10 for the rest of his team in the 4th?

I see, so Lebron has a better 2 point fg%, 3 point fg%, eFG is 7% higher, and he has a higher TS%, both regular season and playoffs, but Lebron had more TO and we ignore assists.


Lebron's 2 point FG% is .550, during his career, the league shot .489. Jordans was .510, the league .484. Lebron shot like .520 as a 21 year old in 2005. That is only a few years removed from Jordan era. Lebron shoots better from 2 in the NBA for 20 years against grown men than Jordan did as a 3 year starter in college.

Yes, the league is shooting .520 for the last 5 years. Lebron is shooting almost .600. FROM 2!

Game 4, I'll give you that one. 20 points 22 shots. Contained him fine. 12 reb, 8 assists. Got to the line 10 times, hitting only 5. This is 2 days after the "all of them" victory. He didn't have it. He is averaging 47 mins a game this series so far, doing 90% of the things a team needs to do to compete. Look at the assists. Lebron gets like 11, the rest of the team typically 5. They are missing their second playmaker and scorer, and K. Love. Tough adjustment to make on the fly.

I don't doubt the Warriors D was excellent that game. Iggy in particular.

It was a good posting run for Anatta. Everyone gets sucked into the idiot vortex that this is thread.


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2015 game 5.
40 14 11. TS% better than Jordan's playoff average his last 3 rings years...

Team had 91 points...40 + 22 = 66. Add in a few more for the penalty FT he got for his team, 3 pointer assists, and passes leading to 2 FT...he accounted for 101 of the 91 points, more or less. Not contained.

Game 6...32 18 rebounds 9 out of the teams 14 assists. Shot 2-10 from 3 and only 4-8 from FT.

I doubt the bad 3 point shooting and FT is Iggy...but ok...efg .424... give you a half a lockdown. Held him to 32 18 and 9! So 1.5 lockdowns and 3.5 pretty sick games.

2016
30 11 9 averages. Shot .500fg, 37% 3. MVP. 7 games not locked down.

2017. Good God lol. 36 12 and 10? 56%fg. 38% from 3. umm. I'm going to go out of a limb and say he wasn't locked down.

Conclusion: Iggy can be credited with 1.5 lockdown games, all coming in a series where Lebron went 1 on 5 vs the best defense in the NBA. He had 15.5 games vs Iggy of total sickness.

I'm just going to leave it at that...or try to... this vortex does infect the brain.

It isn't about shooting 50% in the playoffs. It's a battle of attrition and grueling fatigue, more so the deeper you go. Kobe never shot 50% for a playoff run and was only anywhere close once. Again, the regular season is for pretty stats and postseason is a survival course, especially for those carrying the scoring load. Stop with the newfangled stats that say Pippen isn't a valuable playoff player or lock the thread.

Yea I can't think of a possibly more unequivocal proof of which team is better than a 4-3, +4 whole entire points in aggregate, victory. I guess it was a good thing GSW got Durant or there wouldn't have been any point in even playing out the 2016-17 season.

3ball, if Jordan had played with Karl Malone and John Stockton, would he still be the GOAT?

I would have loved the Warriors to come back in 2017 (without Durant). I think they still start the season favorites. A lot of things went right for the Cavs to win it (including LeBron playing great).