Going back to read some of the forward looking posts ITT from 7 years ago is more interesting than engaging in the back and forth that rumbles on forever on the same topics.

um, luka doesn’t play d anywhere near as good as Lebron does/can. Luka is also nowhere near as athletic. Luka is good but odds he’s better than Lebron are slim.

Did you forget OKC???? Seems like when teams were more even, the results were different.

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Lebron lost 2 leads in the 4th quarter of the 07' and 18' Finals... And 3 in the 09' ECF

He can't control the games down the stretch like MJ because of inferior scoring and clutch

that pussy dragged a 20 win team to overtime that game against the warriors who added durant in golden state.

i agree he handled that poorly-his initial reaction from this pic is fine though. he just put everything he had into getting those clown to this spot in the game to watch some brain dead chucker not even be aware of the score costing his team a ton of equity in that game. it was a shocking moment watching when smith did that.

Damn

That's a good point - MJ and lebron played against many of the same players

Actually, MJ played better than lebron against many of the same guys

Did Jordan go crazy in Game 3 of the 91' Finals when pippen committed a dumb foul on a stumbling Vlade to basically lose the game and foul out?..

Nope

MJ just went down and hit the game-tyer and then dominated OT with pippen watching from the bench

Lebron is so inferior



Lebron had a high seed

Otoh, MJ had an 8 seed when he took the 86' Celtics to OT by hitting FT's with no time left (lebron would've missed them)

So MJ carried teams more and better - he carried a low seed to a deep playoff run in 89', whereas lebron never carried a low seed

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BEST PLAYERS THAT BOTH MJ AND LEBRON FACED


1) SHAQ

Top Lebron moments:

2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left - during those years, Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting (2004 and 2005), and lost the conference to him (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.

Top Jordan moments:

Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here.

2. KOBE:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.

Top Jordan moments:

- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here).

3. DUNCAN

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him

Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here)... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).

4. GARNETT:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF

Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here) and during the regular season (shown here, here and here).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here.

5. SHAWN MARION:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.

Top Jordan moments:

- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here).

6. 2003-2004 seasons

JORDAN 2003: 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
LEBRON 2004: 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg

None of this is insanely biased, jfc.

It's just an illustration to show that we aren't comparing Shaq and Russell, who never faced similar opponents

MJ and lebron played against a lot of the same guys, so there's no reason why lebron shouldn't need 6 rings as the best player to match MJ

I'm actually surprised that he's colluded his way to striking distance, but I know he'll fall a bit short, just like Kobe.. the truth always reveals itself

Such a good post. Bron bron boys whom take themselves and what they have to say way too seriously, won’t be able to have a good laugh over it. Sad really.

Why would I call Tuq?

I am enjoying Bron's 4th title run while you are having a meltdown and writing inane garbage all over the forums.

It makes this championship all more enjoyable seeing the meltdown.


Wait till LeBron drops all his rings on the table in front of Giannis in 2021 and we get another whale. Delicious.

here's the thing big fella,

i think it is fair to say that michael had the greatest sustained peak of all-time and there's nothing lebron can do to catch it. 6-0 in back-to-back three-peats is a sheer, utter dominance. and while beating the 73-win warriors is the greatest feat between the two, it isn't enough to trump what mj did over time. if we are talking about the pinnacle of success, the highest of highs, nobody stood higher than mj. nobody was more flawless, more iconic, larger-than-life.

but this argument isn't who got up higher

it's about who is the greatest

longevity, accomplishments, records, awards, accolades, highlights, how prolific they were all matter. it's a comparison of their cumulative portfolios, not a one-game-fate-of-the-universe-who-do-you-pick-first argument.

and while it still might not be so now, you tack another ring onto his resume, break the all-time points record here and climb the assist ladder there, and the case that lebron has covered more ground becomes quite compelling.

(you could argue that the blemish of mavs 2011 is so great that it drags down lebron's portfolio by an unrecoverable notch. as the cavs ring was the greatest, this is the lowest. but one could also argue that such a failure is beautiful. for some reason, you seem like a person who would really appreciate the essence of wabi-sabi in real life so maybe apply it here too.)

(who's greater? ali or floyd?)

So good that he's used that post several times

Imagine if pippen outplayed Karl Malone in the 98' Finals, and then everyone saying Jordan had a goat accomplishment by winning the series

And imagine Jordan averaging 24 and 6 TO's thru 4 games, thereby needing 7 despite pippen outplaying Malone

Jordan never needed 7 games, even though pippen averaged 19 on 42% in 6 Finals, let alone outplaying Malone

Lebron and Kyrie totally shared the scoring load, which is easier than MJ carrying the load (10-30 more ppg than pippen in every series).. 41/9/6 > 30/11/9, especially considering the pace difference

Ultimately, Lebron has a ball-dominant skillset that prevents the best strategy (ball movement), so he isn't good at beating regular Finals teams, thereby lowering his team's long run championship odds compared to Jordan, Kobe, Bird and others.. lower long run expectation = inferior player.. brands that are good at winning Finals > brands that are good at winning conference finals

How can you write "Lebron and Kyrie" as if it is at all analogous to "Jordan and Pippen" or "Kareem and Magic" or even "Shaq and Kobe"?

I updated this from a previous post:

Year	West	West Line	East	East Line	Vig Free Line	Implied Probability
2020	LA Lakers	-358	Miami	300	329	76%
2018	Golden State	-900	Cleveland	675	788	11%
2017	Golden State	-2000	Cleveland	1000	1500	6%
2016	Golden State	-200	Cleveland	162	181	36%
2015	Golden State	-190	Cleveland	170	180	36%
2014	San Antonio	-125	Miami	105	115	47%
2013	San Antonio	200	Miami	-240	220	69%
2012	Oklahoma City	-160	Miami	140	150	40%
2011	Dallas	160	Miami	-180	170	63%
2007	San Antonio	-500	Cleveland	350	425	19%

Right before the Finals started:

Jordan Title EV: 4.20
Lebron Title EV: 4.02

Jordan: +1.8
Lebron: -.02

Player	Year	Team	Preseason	Playoffs
Lebron James	2004	Cleveland Cavaliers	1%	0%
Lebron James	2005	Cleveland Cavaliers	2%	0%
Lebron James	2006	Cleveland Cavaliers	3%	4%
Lebron James	2007	Cleveland Cavaliers	8%	6%
Lebron James	2008	Cleveland Cavaliers	9%	3%
Lebron James	2009	Cleveland Cavaliers	6%	28%
Lebron James	2010	Cleveland Cavaliers	18%	31%
Lebron James	2011	Miami Heat	26%	20%
Lebron James	2012	Miami Heat	23%	26%
Lebron James	2013	Miami Heat	24%	44%
Lebron James	2014	Miami Heat	26%	26%
Lebron James	2015	Cleveland Cavaliers	22%	24%
Lebron James	2016	Cleveland Cavaliers	23%	16%
Lebron James	2017	Cleveland Cavaliers	19%	18%
Lebron James	2018	Cleveland Cavaliers	14%	10%
Lebron James	2019	Los Angeles Lakers	6%	0%
Lebron James	2020	Los Angeles Lakers	15%	26%
Michael Jordan	1985	Chicago Bulls	1%	1%
Michael Jordan	1986	Chicago Bulls	1%	0%
Michael Jordan	1987	Chicago Bulls	1%	0%
Michael Jordan	1988	Chicago Bulls	1%	6%
Michael Jordan	1989	Chicago Bulls	4%	3%
Michael Jordan	1990	Chicago Bulls	8%	7%
Michael Jordan	1991	Chicago Bulls	9%	22%
Michael Jordan	1992	Chicago Bulls	22%	48%
Michael Jordan	1993	Chicago Bulls	29%	21%
Michael Jordan	1995	Chicago Bulls	4%	14%
Michael Jordan	1996	Chicago Bulls	15%	55%
Michael Jordan	1997	Chicago Bulls	33%	52%
Michael Jordan	1998	Chicago Bulls	28%	32%
Michael Jordan	2002	Washington Wizards	2%	0%
Michael Jordan	2003	Washington Wizards	2%	0%

Preseason EV:

Lebron: 2.34
Jordan: 1.61

Lebron +2.66
Jordan +4.39

Before the Playoffs EV:

Lebron: 2.81
Jordan: 2.61

Lebron +1.19
Jordan +3.39

I have to be honest, the results made Jordan look better than I expected. If I weren't being objective, I could say the odds back in the 90s were terrible and inaccurate and not as reflective of reality as they are now. And, that is probably partially true.

But, Jordan people will always have the rings EV argument. It will be nearly impossible for Lebron to pass Jordan's rings above expectation.

But, I think you could make an argument that the total preseason/playoff ring EV Lebron has created is more than what Jordan has created.

If all teams were equal a player would have a ring EV of .57 over a 17 year career in a 30 team league. Lebron's teams have had 2.34. Jordan played half of his career in a league with 27 teams and half with 29 teams. Averaging that out to 28 teams, in a league where each team is equally likely to win, gives a player a ring EV of .53 over a 15 year career. Teams Jordan was on had a preseason EV of 1.61.

Lebron's overall supporting cast was objectively worse and his top end competition was objectively better. Make of that what you will.

I think Lebron is the better basketball player and has had the better career.

But, there is a reason there is so much resistance to Lebron being the GOAT. As a society we think of success sometimes in a very binary way and overvalue high leverage/high variance/small sample size moments.

If you think titles are all that matters you will never change your mind.

Probably think we need to have separate conversations with established criteria instead of bunching them all into the toxic GOAT conversation.

You could also say people liked to bet on MJ back in the day, so if anything his odds were probably lower.

I calculated vig free lines for all. But, the way I did it was pretty flawed.

Jordan's seasons had much more vig than Lebron's.

So, in 1992, if all the teams odds added up to 130% and the Bulls were 30% to win I would divide .30/1.30 to give the Bulls an implied vig-free probability of 23%.

This isn't the best way to do this because the vig typically gets higher as the odds get longer. So the vig for the Bulls was probably less than 1.30.

The vig added up to ~1.30 in the 90s and ~1.2 in the 00s and around ~1.15 in the 10s. So, Jordan was getting a bigger discount than Lebron.

3ball is nothing more than a broken spam bot at this point.

jwd the criteria for greatest includes all of:

Championships, championship performance, playoff performance, longevity, peak play, sustained peak play, regular season performance, points, rebounds, assists, defense, versatility, leadership, competition. I am sure some matter more than others. Some are easier to quantify than others.

All of the above are measured through a variety of accolades and stats. But you have to look at all of it to say who is the greatest.

Its an easy conversation if people are honest about actually discussing all the criteria above. Instead of just ignoring 90% it.

I agree with your criteria, and I think most people would, the problem is agreeing on how much to weight each criterion. And people may feign that they care about everything but they only focus on ones that support their side. I do think Jordan people are more guilty of this.

The media wonders why some fans hate or disrepect Lebron.. here's the reason:

When fans think about lebron's career, they don't get the same authentic feel as MJ's career or other greats because everyone knows he team-hopped around and built his resume a "new" way.

For example, anyone that experienced even a tiny bit of of mj's career got an authentic vibe of overcoming adversity and triumph... He built favorite status over time, while Lebron hopped on to the Year 1 league favorite twice, and then teamed up with Duncan (AD) late in his career to ensure more rings

So Lebron's career will always have manufactured, fake air to it..

the media completely ignores this and pretends he didn't team up... aka "oh wow, he won 3 titles with 3 teams"... while fans roll their eyes and are like "bruh, he team-hopped around like no one has ever done before"

This dynamic will NEVER change.. he will always be considered a team-hopper that skipped town whenever it got rough.. Fans know this, despite the media's attempts to play dumb or have amnesia

Most people are idiots, why do I care. In the past, players hardly ever changed teams. Now teams turnover in a few years. Isn’t the goal for a player, trying to win titles? You’re basically telling me they should ignore that, and to make it tougher. But when Lebron has made it tougher, i.e. he’s taken crappy teams far in the playoffs you guys complain that he can’t win. This organic title teams is a thing mostly of the past. Look at most of the teams that are winning titles, they typically brought in big time free agents like Shaq, Bron, KD etc. or their team pulled a big time trade like Pau. Spurs are basically it for the last 20 years. Additionally teams like The Lakers and Celtics in the 80s had ridiculous trades that got them Magic and others respectively. Most title teams are built through sheer luck or ripping another team off. Lebron made his teams and that’s some how a bad thing.

You guys put up a bar that can arbitrarily not really be passed and wonder why people think it’s idiotic. Yes, nobody, in a different era can do things better than MJ did it in a different era, with different rules. It’s impossible, that’s why we debate but you basically want goal posts that can’t be passed no matter how a player were to do it because he’s your favorite player.

Pippen sucked bro..

Look at his stats in each series... Complete trash - worse than Paul George most of the time..

Pippen is one of the most overrated players ever ...

* 16/6/5 career averages with weak efficiency

*17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' playoffs...

*12 on 42% vs the 88-90' Pistons

*19 on 42% in 6 Finals

*16 on 40% in many series including... 90' ECF.. 92' ECSF.. 93' 1st Rd.. 96' ECSF.. 96' Finals.. 97 1st Rd.. 97' ECF.. 98' ECF.. 98' Finals


^^^ lebron never won a Finals or beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick

Imagine if AD got those stats - the Lakers would lose in the 1st Rd

The reality is that Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with Pippen getting 10 on 40%, so he would've won that year with anyone OTHER than pippen.. jordan never had a bad series, so anytime a series was close or lost, it was pippen's fault (see the many series listed above)

(and Phil wasn't there in 89' when MJ nearly made the Finals with a low seed - Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and never won without Jordan or his clone.. aka the triangle required a goat bailout artist to be a great offense - it had no real success without one as NY found out)