theres no excuses. his numbers are flat out immensely better than kobe. thats not an "excuse". hes won many more bigger games than kobe with better performances.

Kobe did 81 pts game In 2006 and made 35 ppg for the entire season...
Yea lebron is so much better than kobe ...

But victor it would be nice to see your top 5 with position ...
I think surprises will appeared when you can disrespect Kobe so much....

I don't think Kobe is a more valuable/impactful player but when tons players like Durant say Kobe is right up there in the GOAT discussion, it makes sense -- if you look at it from a player perspective. As a basketball player, Kobe was as complete as they come. Every move in the basketball book, he had. Playing high-intensity defence. That's an impressive player.

The reason why he isn't in armchair discussions is because when we say GOAT, we mean impactful

Players are mostly idiots, not sure what’s your point. Kobe scored 35 ppg and lost in the first round. Kobe is a great player, his stats and metrics Other than rings pale to lebron.

Weird more teams don't hire ex-players to become GM's nowadays. They're all so sharp.

Kobe is a great player.

He's miles behind LeBron though.

Has been since about 2012.

Maybe but 1 on 1 kobe vs lebron is far from being certain !
The guy score 35 pts for the season !
You wont stop him...so it comes down to who have the best defense right ?
I mean even MJ admit he wasnt so sure vs kobe.

So why dont we put shaq ?
For a 3 or 4 year time period he was just a monster and won 3 rings and 3 mvp !
He did has good as Jordan..
He was very impactful

If you are talking just peak, saying Shaq is in contention for GOAT isn't an unreasonable opinion.

ok

I opened with saying that I don't think Kobe is better.... why are you always so defensive when I'm not even bringing Lebron down...

My point is that we need to define what GOAT is even measuring. Basketball skills? Career accomplishments? Dominance/Presence? A little bit of them all?

And yeah, depending on your breakdown, Shaq could be right there.

It's not disrespectful to say Kobe isn't on LeBron level. Kobe is pretty good. Top 20 all time maybe top 15.

I've posted my top 5 a bunch.

LeBron
Jordan
Shaq
Durant
5 im not sure: Wilt, kareem, duncan, hakeem, curry, it depends.

Putting Durant 4 right now seems a little preemptive no? Maybe he projects to be there, but I'd still put KAJ / Duncan comfortably above him for now.

there has never been as much complete and utter bull**** thrown at a consistently great player either.

Yeah Marc Gasol turned out to be a big bust in that trade.

PER x Minutes is stupid. Esp when it’s shown his PER doesn’t decrease with extra minutes played. But whatever you need to use to show “MJ is statistically better than LeBron” or whatever you falsely claim.

You understand that everyone has different peak years? For example someone having. 3 years at 100 and 3 years at 80 is probably worse than 6 years at 95. Just like MJ having the 2nd highest peak ever for 9 years is probably worse than LeBrons peak of similar/equal peak for 12+.

The 9 years btw comes from 87-93, 95-97. Which are his peak years. They go up, hold, come back down and don’t go back up. LeBrons goes up in 07, stays up, comes down in 15, but goes back up and hitting heights no one expected. Having a peak that’s probably going to be longer than jordans entire career counts bra.

I wasn't trying to mock what you said, just wanted to take a shot at former players opinions of stuff like this because it's always so bad.

Like as bad as this thread is, listening to former players debate legacies is 10x worse.

81 in a game? LOLLL. Klay scored 37 in a quarter. Klay is GOAT baby.

The only thing worse than Kobe > LeBron people is Kobe himself. He is pathetic with his disgraceful wanting and attempted manipulating of public opinion. #enjoylbjquest, lol, gtfo man.

Yeah, the shot wasn’t at you other than bringing up what other players think. Like I’m biased but they’re extremely biased and typically don’t have much perspective. Like I like to know their opinion, they were in the trenches but at the same time, they aren’t that helpful in the discussion.

To me, the goat is the best player of all time. It’s a lot to do with individual performance and less to do with team performance. I think it has a lot to do with how long and how consistent a player is especially against elite competition. Like I can see how MJ is a lot of folks, number one. Not sure how Kobe is insanely high (top 5) unless you’re a Kobe/laker fan or perhaps played in the nba. Kobe is lacking in a lot of key metrics in comparison to mj or lebron and many of the truly all time greats. Even Kobe’s 35 ppg season wasn’t that amazing if that’s what’s driving his inclusion into the top 5.

I acknowledge that you don't understand mathematics, so I knew this specific topic would likely be a struggle for you. PER is a per-minute rating. See here for details on the statistic:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

(warning: contains formulas)

Now since it's a per-minute rating, to get the "total productivity" across a given interval, you multiply by minutes in that interval. It's kinda like speed. Do you know what speed is? It's how fast things go. Velocity = distance/time is the formula. = means equals and / is division. If time is in minutes, you multiply both sides by time to get total distance. Likewise, since PER is in minutes, you multiply both sides of the PER formula by time (and since minutes is on the right side of the PER formula it cancels), to get "total productivity".

What year do you take algebra? This should make more sense to you then and not seem "stupid" to you after you are a few weeks into your class.

Yes, yes everyone has different peak years. Thank you for noting that. In your example, the player w/ 3 years at 100 (whatever that means) has a better 3 year peak. The player with 6 years at 95 is worse for 3 years then better for 3 years.

You made an error with MJ. He has the highest peak ever (not second highest) for 9 years once you statistically account for his broken foot. It's actually kinda crazy -- even if you DON'T statistically account for his broken foot, Jordan STILL surpasses LeBron by his 4th year lol. That's how much better he was, statistically, than LeBron early in his career. He broke his foot and lost an entire season, and still beats him in VORP through 4 years.

Taking the top n years for both players, here is who comes out ahead:

Top 1 year (one year peak) = Jordan
2 years = Jordan
3 years = Jordan
4 years = Jordan
5 years = Jordan
6 years = Michael Jordan
7 years = MJ
8 years = Jordan
9 years = GOAT (Jordan)

When you take TEN years LeBron finally (barely) overtakes him. The reason LeBron overtakes him at 10 years is because LeBron started playing in the NBA at 19, Jordan at 21 (so different aging curves), and Jordan lost a year to injury and another 1.5 years to baseball. When you're trying to analyze how good a player is, you typically leave out fluke injuries and years they played another sport. Jordan's peak is actually probably > LeBron out through infinity once you properly account for this.

You are right Twigs! It does count bra. Let's see how it counts:

LeBron better than Jordan in the year Jordan broke his foot.
LeBron better than Jordan while Jordan was playing baseball.
LeBron better than Jordan at age 19 and 20 while Jordan was playing college basketball at UNC.
LeBron better than Jordan when Jordan was 40 years old with the Wizards.

But then......

Jordan better peak in each player's top year, top 2 years, top 3 years.... on up to 9 years. In other words, Jordan has a better peak, no matter how you slice the peak, if you take each player's top 9 years.

Jordan won 6 championships. Better than LeBron's 3.
Jordan has 5 MVP's. Better than LeBron's 4. Even though MJ lost multiple seasons to injury and baseball.
Jordan has 6 finals MVP's. Better than LeBron's 3.

So yes, LeBron playing for more full seasons than Jordan "counts bra". If you want a player who plays for longer, take LeBron, or perhaps Robert Parish if you want the true "play longer" GOAT.

However, if you want the player who is the demonstrably superior basketball player through 9 years (and LeBron barely eeks out a lead at season 10 b/c Jordan played baseball and broke his foot), wins vastly more titles, way more MVP's, and way more finals MVP's, you choose Jordan.

This is what happens when you "count" everything (including longevity), and don't ignore data you don't like.

(anyone have any seizure medication? This post was rather long and filled with accurate information proving Jordan GOAT, capone0 probably triggered and convulsing.)

If you want to completely ignore playoff stats, you win. If you want to ignore MJ quitting in his prime, you win. If you want to ignore injuries, you win. Bringing it down within certain thresholds, isn't a good look. Play it however you want.

It's not bad luck if its self induced. Was he unlucky he broke his hand punching a whiteboard?

He's responsible for the GS superteam by both creating the precedent in Miami and also being instrumental in the asinine CBA that allowed the cap temporarily ballooning.

And there is absolutely nothing historically special about the Spurs. Lol at acting like the Spurs were some GOAT team. Kobe had to play the Spurs too btw.

kawhi was not a superstar when kobe played them. adding a legit superstart to a veteran outside contender makes it all time great level.

there is a lot of fake news here. I was wondering why you werent actually listing their vorps. but going by bref heres the numbers

lbj-mj



so ya, maybe stop lying?

also, lol vorp.