Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
My point is that Jordan has blemishes too.
What if nearly all teams were allowed in playoffs back in 2004 and 2005?
lebron's cavs would've made the playoffs as an 8 seed, and lost to the champion pistons in 1st Round....
just like jordan's bulls lost in 1st Round early in his career, when 16 of the 22 teams were allowed into playoffs
this is THE reason why jordan has 1st round and lebron didn't - obviously, if lebron's teams were allowed in playoffs his first 2 seasons, they would be the 8 seed and lose to the champion pistons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
2007 was a LeBron masterpiece.
Stats at 22-23 years old versus championship team and #1 defense:
Jordan vs. 86' Celtics:. 44 ppg on 51%
Lebron vs. 07' iSpurs:. 22 ppg on 36%
despite Lebron's 22 ppg on 35%, all 4 games were single-digit affairs, including 1-possession nail-biters in Games 3 and 4.. (edit: Game 1 was 11 pt game)
The Cavs had a great defense, but just needed a consistent volume scorer to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
MJ had bad casts, and so did LeBron.
when comparing supporting casts, it doesn't matter who's better between pippen or love, etc.. what matters is how they rank relative to their respective competition - THAT'S what determines how much benefit they provide to mj/lebron
Thru 1989, Jordan had no teammates that were anywhere NEAR top 3 players at their position in the conference (all-stars), whereas Lebron entered the league with a 2-time all-star center on his team - Zydrunas averaged 17/9 and 2.1 blocks in 2005, and 16/8 and 1.7 blocks in 2006.. So Lebron's 2nd option was far better relative to his competition than Jordan's 2nd options thru 89'.
infact, lebron's
3rd and 4th options from 2005-2007 compare favorably to 2nd year pippen from 1989.. for example, larry hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 1st team all-defense in 2005 (and 15/4/4 in 2006 alongside lebron).. 2nd year pippen couldn't get anywhere NEAR that level - hughes' veteran status, accolades, and stats, made him better relative to his competition than 2nd year pippen.. drew gooden's steady 11/9 also compared to 89' pippen..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
2007 was a LeBron masterpiece.
Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007
Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.
1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)
2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)
Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)
NO COMPARISON..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
2009 with 66 wins was a materpiece.
it was excellent.. but by 09' and 10', lebron's casts were
far better than jordan's 85-89' casts.
mo williams was an all star, so he was better than 89' pippen relative to his competition; antawn jamison had been a multiple-time all-star and averaged 16/8; and shaq still got 12/7 with 1.5 blocks - all these guys were equal or better than 89' pippen.
regarding lebron's super-team casts in later years - before bosh/love joined lebron, they were superstar #1 options and arguably the best at their position, just like pippen.. yet they were lebron's
3RD options!!!.. lebron still had wade/kyrie, smh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
2009 with 66 wins was a materpiece.
In 2009, the supporting cast production + Lebron's 28/8/7 = 66 wins..
Compare that to 1989, when the Bulls' supporting cast + Jordan's 33/8/8 = 47 wins..
The 19-win gap isn't only due to Lebron's weaker conference - it's due to the aforementioned gap in supporting cast as well.. the numbers don't lie
and jordan DID MORE with that 1989 team: the 47-win bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without jordan's 33/8/8.. so that was a lottery team and headed nowhere without jordan, but jordan's presence made them ECF veterans and just a season away from starting 3-peat (exact same roster)..
that's the goat impact on a bad team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
How the hell do people get to just re-write his entire history?
indeed, here's a gross misperception regarding just how weak jordan's cast was relative to his competition, and how decent lebron's was relative to his..
here's the proper perception: rookie Jordan entered the league on a Sixers-level roster in a tough conference like the current West, so 44 ppg on 51% wasn't enough to win 1st Round.. Otoh, rookie Lebron entered the league with an all-star Center teammate in perhaps the weakest East ever, so 26 ppg on 45% won ecf and got him to 07' Finals (and 24 ppg on 43% in ecsf).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
7 straight finals, It goes on and on and on.
how is making the finals 7 straight seasons equal to winning the Finals 6 times in 8 years?.. how does 7 straight finals = 6/6?... its preposterous
ultimately, jordan won 6 rings in his first 13 seasons - thats the the goat championship frequency post 60's.. lebron can never match that
thru 14 seasons, jordan has 6 rings to lebron's 3, while achieving higher PER and ws/48 in rs, po, and finals.. where's the debate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
And I'm not even talking about his finals victories.
Playoffs stats needed for rings:. Lebron's 12, 13, 16 vs. MJ's 91, 92, 93
PER GAME
Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER
PER 100 POSSESSIONS
Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 44.5 pts.. Ii8.4 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 3.8 tov.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 36.1 pts.. 10.2 reb.. 8.7 ast.. 4.4 tov.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER
MJ was required to score 25% more for his rings with EQUAL assists..
for their playoff careers, jordan averaged 5 more ppg with only one less assist (offset by less turnovers), while achieving equal shooting efficiency and greater per possession efficiency.. obviously, lebron would be a
far more dominant player if he averaged 5 more points on better efficiency.
sources:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jamesle01.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
My point is that Jordan has blemishes too.
what are they?
he never lost as the favorite or with homecourt, or even when it was 50/50
otoh, lebron lost as the favorite and with homecourt from 2009-2011, and lost when it was
50/50 in 2014
btw, the 2014 spurs didn't have more talent than the heat, so their record margin of victory reflects the gap in teamwork between the 2 teams.. indeed, lebron's stats were achieved while his team had the biggest teamwork deficit ever in a finals.. therefore, his stats can be criticized as "empty", and his style of play as self-serving
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien
both players have heroics in the playoffs
jordan has a lot MORE heroics, and a lot less poor performances.
you listed 5 or 6 heroic performances in the playoffs for bron - but jordan's list dwarfs lebron's.. literally - his list is way longer.. it would be a very long post
and he has far less poor playoff series than lebron... and his worst is far better than lebron's worst
.
Last edited by 609; 07-26-2017 at 09:16 AM.