...

dont see how that could be the case. they went to the wcf 5 times in 20 years with those guys and got eliminated in the first a bunch of times (think its like 11 or 12, not sure off the top of my head). sure its a pretty good team, and I would say historic. but its not even close to contention to being a goat team.

Lebron could be holding Kyrie back from greatness.

"His upside shows up in the numbers too. Since 2014–15 in the regular season and playoffs, according to data derived from NBA Wowy, Irving scores 23.8 points with a 52.9 effective field goal percentage with LeBron off the floor, compared to 30.5 points with a 51.7 effective field goal percentage when LeBron is on the floor. Irving’s efficiency barely dips despite a huge increase in scoring volume. Maybe that’s not a sustainable clip for Irving to hit, but the list of players even capable of doing it is quite short.

Sometimes we forget that Irving is only 25, and not even in the prime of his career. Playing with LeBron has forced him into a primarily off-ball role. And it has worked. Cleveland won a title! But it also stunted Irving’s development as a playmaker. His “point guard” position is meaningless when LeBron is actually the primary creator. Irving is more like a classic combo guard. Guys like John Wall and Stephen Curry got endless opportunities in their early 20s to develop their PG skills. Irving missed out on this education. Without Bron, he could conceivably get it — better late than never."

https://theringer.com/why-kyrie-irvi...s-1b80fe2857d9

How is this different than ranking MJ first for winning all the time? MJ didn't have to play with Thurl Bailey.

because they only get there to the finals twice. even during peak malone they get bounced in the first. dont see how they can even mean "one of the best hoops teams ever"

there are a tonne of teams who have 1/2 rings that arent remembered for being one of the best teams ever.

Aren't you a bit harsh ?
Utah between 1994-98 lost 4 times vs the eventual NBA champion in 5 years.
Twice vs the bulls in NBA final and twice vs Houston with a peak Hakeem the dream in 94&95 in their conference.

SA have been bounced in the first round in 3 of the last 9 years, but everyone tells me that they are soooo fantastic (particularly the LeBron guys).

no one is parading that they among the goat teams though (nor should they)

fwiw 3 in 9 > 11 in 20

You are right in saying they don't belong in GOAT teams. Definitely among the most consistent ever though.

dude no. this is very very wrong and eye test nor stats support it. look at irving's development before lebron got there. he didnt improve much. he came in amazing and then neither his numbers nor the team's success improved.

alongside lebron, both his efficiency and obv the team's success improved.

and it complete bs that irving is forced off the ball. watch the cavs or check the $tat$

Kyrie had a higher usage than Lebron in the regular season and 0.5% less in the playoffs (31.6 vs 31.1)

I think it's all about "being the man" for Kyrie rather than usage (9th in the regular season and 8th in the playoffs).

Not sure why you wouldn't ride it out one more year.

Im not sure whats dumber. Thinking the earth is flat or not wanting to play with Lebron - Haralabob on Twitter

you're forgetting about "time of possession" - that's the amount of time a player holds the ball.

it's a point guard stat.. in the regular season, the top 25 for time of possession are all point guards....except lebron, which is the seminal issue here:

his 6.1 minute time of possession was point guard-level, and far higher than other SF's, whose time of possession is between 2-4 minutes.. therefore, lebron's teammates have less time with the ball than guys on other teams, whose forwards have a normal 2-4 minute time of possession.

in the case of guards playing alongside lebron, the lesser time reduces their playmaking opportunity: lebron has played with 3 all-star guards, and all of them saw their assists go down alongside lebron, so its no surprise that one of them decided not to take it

in addition to impinging on his teammates' time of possession and guards' playmaking, the extra pick n' rolls that he consumes takes away from his pf's post/playmaking opportunities... and his preference to play pf/c on the defensive glass over perimeter defense on his man (3 fmvps for his assignment) reduces the bigs' opportunities on the glass
.

good to see you made a post that was irrelevant.

i significantly edited it

please read again

lebron's presence as an extra pg reduces everyone's time of possession, including kyrie, who playmakes less alongside bron

You can keep posting the ball dominace stuff yet his teams still win and if not for better teams he might have more titles. You can use this crap with cp3 but with LEbron he basically is a pg so his high possession time is expected.

cliffs:

lebron would be a MORE effective player at generating the basketball and teamwork needed to sustain dominant, championship winning if...

he just played his position

Kyrie has a Top 10 usage in the league. Also a Top 15 for time in possession (more than LeBron). He also finished the season with the 6th most shots per game.

Considering he's not a Top 10 talent in the league, that's pretty high.

Do you think he should have more?

Or maybe the best player in the game should be allowed to touch the ball.

here are the statistical facts:


1) lebron's presence as a 2nd player with a point guard-level time of possession reduces his teammates' time with the ball

2) their reduced time with the ball reduces their assists

3) with teammates getting less assists, the TEAM gets less assists (14.7 average team ranking in lebron's career)

4) with lebron's teams getting less assists and teamwork, they need excessive talent to win (aka team-hopping)

ultimately, lebron can't wait the necessary time for his teams to develop great teamwork, because his style literally prevents it, so he team-hops, essentially talent-hunting

Keep repeating the same tired arguments.

basically, lebron should dominate the game by playing his position, not impinging on other players' roles where he feels, and then offsetting the invariable reduction in teamwork by having sufficient talent acquired via team-hopping

ultimately, lebron can't wait the necessary time for his teams to develop great teamwork, because his style literally prevents it, so he team-hops, essentially talent-hunting

LeBron plays the point at time, because, you know, he's really good at it.

My question was, does Kyrie deserve to be higher on those lists than he already is? I'll let you know the answer. No he doesn't.

Here's another question for you. Do you believe that Michael Jordan shouldn't play in the post, because that's a big mans position? He should stick to dominating the game in his position as a shooting guard and let the big men get the touches in the post.

not in playoffs (6.1 minutes to lebron's 7.9)

lebron always goes full playground,ball-dominator mode in playoffs


kyrie thinks he can be a westbrook/harden-like stat-producer, or something close

he knows he'll never be that next to lebron

essentially, he doesn't think he's achieving close enough to his max stats next to bron


jordan played the post to fulfill the most important position in the triangle: post scorer

the bulls didn't have anyone to fulfill this spot, so it was a perfect match since jordan was a tremendous post player

jordan's double-duty as both elite ballhandler and elite post-up player gave the bulls' offense a unique flexibility that i don't believe phil's laker teams had, with shaq playing the dominant post role