Organic is meaningless in NBA context. The word organic:

: of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides

:relating to, being, or dealt with by a branch of chemistry concerned with the carbon compounds of living beings and most other carbon compounds

: having systematic coordination of parts

: of, relating to, or arising in a bodily organ




All which have nothing, nada, zero to do in any kind of NBA discussion.

Another myth busted!

If you want to transmute the word organic into NBA context.

Building a team revolves 3 things:

1) Draft
2) Free agent signings
3) Trades


Which is exactly what Jordan's teams did and LeBron's teams did.


Verdict: LeBron and Jordan's teams were all as organic as another since both teams used the above methods to put their teams together.

nah it's more about how after 11 years, 20000 posts and only god knows how many words i can't believe that you guys are still in here every day like there's something new to say about this inane argument about whether blue or red is the best colour. move on, find a new slant

Sure that's why I have Magic and Lebron next to each other in the all-time rankings - they're the best ball-dominators of all-time but this style needs the most help, which puts them behind the best centers (9. Shaq 8. Duncan 7. Kareem 6. Russell 5. Wilt). followed by the best expert jumpshooters of all-time, who needed the least help (Bird, Curry, Kobe, MJ)..

"Passers" like Magic and Lebron inherently need all-time scoring help - they need all-time scorers at sidekick that can lead the team scoring for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's.. Only Magic and Lebron had this caliber of help, aka all-time scorers at sidekick that outplayed league MVP's, i.e. Kyrie over Curry, Kareem over Bird, AD over Jokic, or Wade over Dirk.




The reason why winning "organically" matters is because every lottery pick is drafted to a horrible team, so they must build it from scratch "organically" without good supporting talent.. Without good talent, a team must learn to win by developing great chemistry and brand of ball, which are hallmarks of an "organic" path.. Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Mj and Lebron all took this organic path of chemistry development to achieve league favorites by Year 7 with "normal" or "organic" rosters... But Lebron simply gave up in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development (organic), and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

This is all intuitive when commentators, coaches and media talk about winning "organically" or building a team "organically".. Winning organically usually takes years to achieve league favorite status, whereas Lebron took the easiest path by forming Year 1 league favorites via ready-made talent, aka non-organic in 2011, 2015, and 2020.. I suppose 2020 was technically year 2

"Organic" winners like Curry, Jokic, Giannis or MJ had regular rosters with only 1 franchise player, while Lebron obtained better rosters by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka "super-team"... (and still mostly lost).

Ultimately, guys like MJ, Jokic, Curry, and Giannis took years to develop league favorite status, while Lebron formed a Year 1 league favorite in 2011 via super-team - that's the easiest path possible (Year 1 league favorite)..

Then he formed another Year 1 league favorite in 2015 via another super-team formation (the Cavs were preseason favorites in 2015 and 2016 due to being the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka super-team)... Once again, he mostly lost.

And it's a skillset issue - Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill and elite ability to play off teammates (off-ball) - the resulting reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Zero young players grew from single digit rookies to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch (zero young player development in 2 decades).
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Thread Summary


"Organic" winners like Curry, Jokic, Giannis or MJ had regular rosters with only 1 franchise player, while Lebron obtained better rosters by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka "super-team".. Since organic rosters are characterized by lacking ready-made talent, they must win with development of chemistry, brand of ball and young players.. This kind of chemistry and young player development are hallmarks of the "organic" path, but unfortunately, Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Lebron is forced to rely on ball-dominance because he lacks expert jumpshooting skill, while also lacking the ability or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball).. Since Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles hinders teammate development, chemistry or strategic capcacity/coaching, he fields mostly weak records, perennial underdogs and low team ceiling/Finals records regardless of cast.

Ultimately, guys like Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Mj and Lebron all took the organic path of chemistry development to achieve league favorites by Year 7 with "normal" or "organic" rosters... But Lebron simply gave up in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development (organic), and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic
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Thread summary is you being a dumbass for thousands of posts.

When it comes to Kevin Durant not winning with Westbrook, you say it's Westbrick, no one wins with Westbrick.

Fair, but when it comes to LeBron James playing with a much older and worse Westbrook, suddenly it's LeBron is a bum who can't win with top-75 player and HoFer Westbrook.

You cherry-pick whatever fits your narrative at any given time, and that's why no one takes you seriously.

In 2007, Lebron was given a pass for worst-ever performance vs Spurs because he was 22, while his worst-ever shooting against the 08' Celtics was overlooked because he was only 23..... So when a 23-year old KD carries 23-year old Westbrick to the Finals and manages favorite status over a veteran super-team, he should be lauded for carrying a young baby like Westbrook at the same "too young" age that got 07' or 08' Lebron a pass.

Accordingly, the last thing anyone should do is say that 23-year old KD and Westbrook were good "comp", but then give a pass to bed-wetting Lebron at the same age for being "too young".. So before we even consider Lebron's goat underachievement in 2022, we have to look back and see how KD already proved he was more capable than Lebron by carrying baby Wesbrick to the Finals when Westbrick was at the "too young" age like Lebron was when he wet the bed in 07' or 08'.

KD's superior ability with Westbrook was confirmed again in 2022 when Lebron/AD missed the play-in with Westbrick specifically because Lebron had worst-ever fit with Westbrook (literally the worst of all-time between 2 players) and this bad fit was due to Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill and great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball)..

aka Lebron doesn't really play 5 positions because a 5-position player cannot have bad fits by virtue of playing 5 positions.. So Lebron's career of horrific fits with many players like Westbrook, Hughes or Ingram confirms that he only has a point guard skillset..

He simply starts at forward which creates a redundancy of ball-dominance with the actual point guard and this extra concentration of ball-dominance hinders ball movement and yields low assist teams.. This inferior brand and chemistry requires more talent and still can't achieve more than perennial underdog status on the Finals level regardless of cast.. Bron-ball barely meets this underdog expectation (4/10).

Ultimately, when we consider KD's twice-confirmed superior ability with Westbrook and superior chemistry overall with all player-types, coupled with "unbeatable" team ceiling that KD gives a team (17-19' Warriors) - while Lebron mostly loses with every lineup - coupled with KD destroying Lebron HU on numerous occasion including the 12/17/18 Finals - it's clear that KD > Lebron but Lebron simply had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond because by that time he got 2nd pickings and injured players (harden, kyrie), while his moves looked late and desperate compared to 1st-mover Lebron (in the colluding space).

KD > Lebron

You can't see the forest, just individual trees.

It's a team game. That's what you just can't get (and, as a result, be able to decipher who is who and their respective ability to help a team at different points in their career). You always have to boil things down to accolades and result oriented thinking because you can't actually evaluate players based on their play.

Something like boxing or tennis would fit your fandom much better.

You're not wrong about some of this. LeBron is a point and Jordan isn't. Michael Jordan is the GOAT just like Jerry Rice is, but neither are quarterbacks. Just like Durant isn't.

So yes, Durant and MJ are better pure scorers for a team role than LeBron. They don't see the game the way LeBron does. I don't blame LeBron for wanting the keys to the car when he can play the way he does. He plays a team game but does indeed want to play point, Magic did too. You don't really disagree with me, you just don't like it and can never cede an inch bc you're so partisan.

Having your point at forward is a huge luxury tho, especially with the way the game is played now. It'd be like saying having your qb be able to scramble is a redundancy bc you already have fast guys at other positions.

A quick review of your posts in this thread shows all pro Jordan, anti LeBron takes going back over a decade! And consistently over the years too. You also have 70 000 posts on this forum.

And you have the gall to sit there and tell us to "move on".

You're just upset your fellow Jordan stan fallguy is getting whipped like a pinata all over the place while LeBRAN is extending his lead as the GOAT.

Thread Cliffs:

I love this thread so much.

ORLY???

This is what you said about Curry not too long ago:





From most overrated player in history to ORGANIC WINNER. I need 72off to comment on this insanity!

MJ, Curry, and Kobe would have 70-win team with this Laker team, yet Pierce is saying Lebron is goat if he wins this year?

This is why I don't watch today's NBA.

Curry won with Wiggins so what would he do with many teammates that are better than Wiggins like AD, D-lo, Reeves and many more?.. How is Pierce falling for the fraud of allowing Lebron to have bad regular season records and underdog status with the most stacked roster in the league?... MJ would never lose with this team

It's amazing how results oriented people are that they think 6 rings means that Kerr, Paxson and Horace is a better cast than this Laker team - the reality is that Wood or Dinwiddie would be the 4th best player on either 3-peat team but they're like 10th best and buried on this stacked, manufactured Laker roster..

It's completed bs to say Lebron is goat for being 9 seed underdog with this roster and lottery out West without AD.. Then if he gets carried to the title by having numerous teammates match his scoring, this shared load will be called goat even though MJ always carried the load

Lebron has bad records and underdog teams with rosters that MJ or Curry would have all-time records and dominant favorites with

And when Lebron mostly loses the title with these underdog teams but of course wins once in a rare while like every underdog eventually does, this is considered better than MJ or Curry winning 70 games and having dominant favorites that win every year..

it's complete looney tunes and it shows exactly how fans are being defrauded by Lebron and Klutch Sports.. It isn't better to have bad records and underdog status that rarely wins, than it is to have great records and dominant teams that usually win.. People have it backwards and give credit to the rare upset more than consistent winning... It's like lauding a bad team when they eventually win one and then saying this is better than having a team that always wins.

Baby goes 'wah, wah!'

LEBRON RUINED THE GAME!!

No you don't understand bball 101 because you don't understand WHAT MAKES a great team game.

It isn't 1 guy dominating the ball and turning everyone into spot up shooter..

This is confirmed by 21 years of the lowest title frequency, numerous horrible fits, zero #1 offenses, zero young player development, and the worst championship record in modern history.

So you have it backwards - you think that one guy holding the ball is a "team game" but it's the opposite.. Ball movement is a team game but this requires superior skill such as expert jumpshooting, great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) and superior passing to find open teammates or trick defenses without dominating the ball.

Lebron can't do any of this higher-level stuff that yields great chemistry, #1 offenses and better teams with less help.. Instead, his luka-ball style yields bad chemistry and teammates playing below capacity, along with zero young player development and weaker team offenses.. This is statistical fact.. It's amazing that people claim lebron plays a team game in light of his many bad fits, teammates cratering alongside him and inferior team offenses to MJ, Curry and others

Curry proving me wrong is literally why he's in my top 5... Otoh, Lebron has never proven me wrong on a single thing I've ever said about him, so he remains outside my top 10

Btw, it's quite simple - Curry and KD can be added to teams and eventually they'll land on a team where they will make the team unbeatable and run off many titles - this higher team ceiling that they can provide (running off many titles and having unbeatable team) gives them more long-run title equity than Lebron, who isn't capable of mostly winning with any cast.. he'll never run off a bunch of titles with any roster, while KD will, so KD has better title equity, aka he's better

Every bad team like the current Pistons will eventually win a game, so even the worst teams eventually win...

So it's stupid to laud Lebron for producing bad teams that eventually win once in a rare while, instead of praising players that can produce great teams that mostly win titles for various stretches.

So the fraud is selling the public that Lebron's rosters are bad and therefore praising the eventual upset win, even though Curry and MJ would have 10 titles each and many 70-win seasons with Lebron's rosters.. They already won more than him with far less supporting talent or seasons.

So you're a Lebron hater.

/s

Why does anyone care about this? I mean if you want to try and say a guy that can literally do everything on the court, and has done it at a higher level, for longer than anyone is basketball history, can't turn ok rosters into champions, ok... great. Opinion noted.

I don't do the tocks of ticks... but my teenage son has been saying that there are videos talking about how MJ would just be an average player in today's NBA. That what he was doing, nearly all NBA players are doing today.

Needless to say I slapped the sht out of him... kidding. But, wth is up with this generation and denigrating everything about previous generations. Even MJ is under attack?

These generational battles need to stop, they aren't good for anyone, and it's just another way to keep people divided.

I reckon Jordan today would translate similar to Kobe Bryant. A top 5 player in the league, but not the clear best of his era like he was.

I always find it funny when people think Kobe is anywhere near a GOAT discussion. He was barely ever even considered the best player when he was playing. 1 MVP, and 1 runner up. Compare that to the real GOAT types like LeBron 4 MVPs, and 4 runner ups, and Jordan, 5 MVPs, and 3 runner ups. It's laughable how somehow Kobe got in that discussion for so many people now.

You can't watch Edwards and SGA and not see how MJ would be dominate in today's game.

Kobe obviously not in GOAT conversation. Probably around 15 on the list.

Yeah I think MJ would be a top player in the modern game for sure. I also would expect him to adapt to taking way more 3s.