Here are the sobering facts - MJ needed nothing to win 40 games in 1987, while Lebron needed the East all-star center to win 40 in 2005.

Jordan also needed nothing and no coaching to win 50 in 88', while the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas won 50 in by adding a HOF coach and 22/5/5 1st team defender in 06'.

Hughes was healthy for most of 07' and all of 08', yet the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas could only win 45 games with him in 08' before Lebron received the all-star spacing that his stiff arm needed in 09' to be MVP and have a real contender.

And yes, 22 on 35% is disqualifying - the fact that a 22 on 35% player won the East shows that it didn't take a goat-level player to win it and we already saw Iverson, Dwight and Kidd win with 1-star teams.. Furthermore, the 22 on 35% is especially disqualifying because this performance was validated by Lebron doing the same thing in 08' against the Celtics (26 on 35%) - so he simply wasn't capable of performing against championship comp at that age, which makes MJ and others vastly superior at that age..

Heck, Lebron gets a pass for being 22 and 23 years old, but then people give him props for beating 23-year old Westbrick and KD in 2012.. Infact, it's disqualifying for a veteran super-team to be underdogs to baby Westbrick.. Accordingly, history confirms that Lebron underperforms favored talent by losing with preseason favorites or falling to underdog for 6 straight years (2011-2016), except the Allen miracle... And then losing with preseason favorite again in 2021...

It's objective fact that preseason favorites are favored talent, so losing with them is losing with favored talent - that's what Bron-ball does for 21 years and counting... And don't blame age because PRIME LEBRON barely won 50 with 2 all-stars in 14' or 17' - having weak teams with preseason favorites and stacked rosters is disqualifying.. Mostly losing with 2 star teammates is disqualifying when MJ was unbeatable with just 1.

This proves my entire point. Why would I care about tonight? I've said about 7 times in the last 48 hours I think MJ is the greatest of all time. Your judgement is so clouded you've lost all ability at reading comprehension.

And again, you can't compare '05 Hughes with '90 Pippen. Pippen was still developing and got significantly better in '91-'92. '05 Hughes was not the same player in Cleveland. If Lebron's play was directly responsible for this you'd see Hughes, once he left CLE, revert back to a level of performance relative to his pre CLE years, which he never did.

Having a good regular season builds chemistry, momentum and favorite status for the postseason

Unfortunately, Lebron has eschewed a chemistry approach since 2011 when he opted for a talent-based approach, at which point all losses were blamed on insufficient talent (more help needed) - this meant that the regular season was largely unnecessary because it's primary purpose of building chemistry wasn't an objective anymore.

So how would Wizards MJ win with this laker team assuming he doesn't get injured?... The team would go all-out in the regular season to build better chemistry, momentum and favorite status.. These Lakers wouldn't have a low seed and wouldn't face the Nuggets in the first round.. And there would be a perfect fit with a happy D-Lo because he gets to run the point unfettered with MJ off-the-ball.. Meanwhile, AD gets the frontcourt to himself - the entire team is elevated by the superior fits, ball movement and defensive accountability.. It would be night and day.. Of course even Wizards' Jordan as hitting game-winners in Shawn Marion's face and was superior in the clutch than the turnover machine and bricklayer LeScared and LeBlameGame.

Btw, since Lebron gave up on the chemistry learning curve in 2011 and opted for a talent-based approach, he never really learned how to win (chemistry development, organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy)... Imagine having drastically inferior chemistry than the Spurs or nuggets and blaming the loss on needing more help, smh... that's a talent-based winner for ya

My favorite part of this is when you rewarded Jordan for winning 50 in '88 with "no coaching", despite his coach being inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame as a coach, and you penalized Lebron for needing a Hall of Fame coach to win 50, despite his coach only being elected to the --checks notes-- Mesa Community College Hall of Fame as a player.

Congrats sir. You have won spin zone of the year.

Hughes wasted his prime years in Lebron-ball just like Love, Bosh, and others

And the point is that MJ almost beat the Pistons with 1989 or 1990 Pippen, so what would he do with a player that was performing much better than Pippen, while already having the East all-star center?.. Clearly, Lebron had a completely stacked teams compared to Jordan's 80's teams and even his 1990 team.. And we already discussed how Lebron's 09' and 10' teams kept adding players and had more scoring options or better defensive rank than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

Btw, most people don't know that Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF and had 7 points in Game 5, so he basically missed Games 5 and 6 of the 89' ECF, while also missing Game 7 in 1990... If Jordan gets 10 points from Pippen in these games, he easily beat the Pistons in both 89' and 90' with essentially nothing - so the point is that when Jordan started winning from 91-98', that's basically what he was getting from pippen - garbage like 19 on 42% for his Finals career, or 17 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat playoffs, or worst-ever efficiency in the 93' and 96-98' runs.. so jordan never had a talented cast - he won with low-producers by developing great chemistry over time because his skillset allows great ball movement and brand of ball.

All those great Cavs players he got to play with meanwhile he'd leave and they'd win 20 games. Jordan left the bulls won 55 so give it a rest already. Please tell me more about NBA legends Illgalscous and Antoine Jamison who played with LeBron for about 25 games total then led the Cavs to one of those sweet 20 win seasons.

You're the one trying to draw conclusions from 39 year old LeBron vs prime joker not anybody else in this thread. But wizards Jordan was a lot worse than this and Kobe 3 years younger was beyond washed- not just worse than his prime but an absolute garbage player. Your pretzel logic is rather amusing. Somehow this is a knock on LeBron despite being way better than those 2 guys at that age. Make that make sense.

Pippen also led the bulls to 55 wins and got absolutely hosed on a phantom foul call against Hubert Davis which cost the Bulls a game against the Knicks in 94,a series the Knicks won in 7 games before losing the finals in 7 games to Hakeem. LeBron leaves and the Cavs get the number 1 pick. Good talk.

The 2011 Cavs lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - they lost Varejao, Mo, Shaq, Delonte, and Zydrunas, which was 52 ppg combined.

The 2015 Heat were injured by nearly made the ECF in 2016.

The 2019 Cavs were injured with Love out

So the whole narrative about teams collapsing without Lebron is low intelligence and false

Meanwhile, the 94' Bulls won 55 because no one cared about playing them - they peaked as 2nd round losers and would've been lottery in 95' or 96' if MJ hadn't returned... that's the goat impact - lottery team in 95' or 96' without MJ, to goat team with MJ.

That's a cute pile of puke you just mentioned about the Cavs. Just an absolute joke of a squad.

Hahahaah they won 55 games bc nobody paid attention hahaha
That's funny even for you.
That **** you just mentioned for the Cavs would need a 300 game season to win 55 games.

I got news for you-pippen definitely got a lot of attention in 94 but the Cavs got absolutely zero attention without LeBron.



2nd round losers in a 7 game series to the team that lost in 7 in the finals after getting totally ****ed out of a game by the refs. Yea they were horrible.


Lottery team? They were a game above .500 Jordan game back in 95.

Like I said try using facts. When people do what you do it just takes away from the Jordan is better argument.

Now please regale me with some more great tales such as how dominate 38 year old Shaq was with the Cavs (if only Kobe was lucky enough to play with such a fine specimen)and how LeBron is simultaneously better than Jordan and Kobe at this age but also hurts his legacy with his play at this age.

How can Kobe be number 2 all time when he was the second best player on his own team (but didn't play with Jordan) when he was AWFUL at 35-37? And LeBron merely being a very good player in his late 30s hurts his GOAT case?

I'll take Jordan over LeBron but LeBron is so much closer to Jordan than Kobe is to LeBron.

But at least there was that great team chemistry Kobe provided lmao.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...753b704a&ei=12


so let's quit pretending that pippen wasn't the biggest choker in NBA history including the "migraine" game, the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul on Hubert" game, or losing a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter of Game 7, or missing 2 FT's before Reggie Miller's historic winner over MJ in 98' ECF, or the game-losing turnover in 1st Round of 1999, and the worst clutch stats ever (last 5 within 5).. He also missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF that most people don't realize that was his first "migraine"... Bill Laimbeer said "we didn't even think about pippen".

Pippen has zero big shots hit in entire career... the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - and this isn't just title runs - it's ANY run - Jordan won with the biggest bricklayer and choker ever, aka MJ GOAT

So rings do, in fact, matter to the GOAT discussion? Can you explain why? Please be as specific as possible.

Earlier in the thread, when people would point out that Jordan has 6 championships, which is pretty impressive, there would be a chorus of LOL RANGZ, or other similar intelligent responses.

What is your opinion of those responses? Again, please be as specific as possible. Bonus points for the use of logic and consistency.

Hubert Davis can say he went to the moon it doesn't make it true. Pippen didn't touch him.


Notice how when you say Pippen sucked in certain series he actually did suck in ,I don't dispute it. But when I mention how well he played in 94 your retort is he sucked in the 89 ecf . Which has ****ing NOTHING to do with 94. Oh and teams didn't try against the bulls in 94 that was a good one!

I mean I'm not pretending the 94 bulls are some all time great team but they'd absolutely smoke every single Cavs team LeBron was on if you remove LeBron except the 2 seasons Irving was healthy in the finals. Utterly destroy them. If my memory is correct that's 9 of his 11 Cavs teams just getting skull ****ed by the 94 bulls.

Speaking of the 98 ECF- Pippen and Jordan both SUCKED ass in game 7. Kukoc bailed them out. Jordan controls the narrative in a documentary on that team. They spend about half an hour on that game and don't mention Kukoc once. That's some fallguy level spin.

This is amazing

The dumb ones in this thread are the ones who keep replying to fallguy.