Well when Jordan was 23 he led a trash team to a losing record and a first round sweep. Or if you want to go by years in the league, in his 5th year he led a slightly better team with a young Pippen to 45 wins to a 6 game loss in the conference finals after losing multiple games in each round prior.

Oh **** me it's a reg date from this month what am I doing?

Lol. Guy is counting the number of losses in a first round that was won.

Unbelievable

90-91 Bulls playoff record: 15-2
91-92 Bulls playoff record: 15-7
92-93 Bulls playoff record: 15-4

95-96 Bulls playoff record: 15-3
96-97 Bulls playoff record: 15-4
97-98 Bulls playoff record: 15-6

24 playoff series. Only 2 of those series went to game 7. Only 9 of those series saw a game 6. It would be fair to point out that during those years the first round of the NBA playoffs was a best of five series; however, it would also be fair to point out that the Jordan-led Bulls were 18-0 in first round series games.

To this point, it's not even close comparing Jordan's playoff record to LeBron's.

Fair point regarding the '89 Bulls. However, by Jordan's 7th season in the league he went on a run of total dominance, as I outlined in the post above. LeBron's 7th season in the league was the 2009-2010 season, where he lost in the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals to the Celtics in 6 games. You could argue his supporting cast was criminal, and you'd get no argument from me. The trouble with that argument is the following season when he formed Miami Thrice with Wade & Bosh. Losing to the Mavs in 6 games is inexcusable. In particular, LeBron played very poorly in that Finals. Jordan never played poorly in a Finals. Jordan never lost a Finals. Jordan never played a game 7 in the NBA Finals. He eliminated his opponents in 6 games or fewer all 6 times, not getting eliminated himself in 6.

Do you really think you're educating anyone of anything or that anyone here would consider Lebron's overall playoff record superior to Jordan's? The previous post was just cherrypicking garbage and that's all I was speaking to.

Jordan punches at least 2 of these guys in the face, not sure how that would affect his lose-2-games-in-first-round equity.

I'm not suggesting that I'm the more knowledgeable basketball fan. I haven't followed basketball closely since Jordan's era. I'll concede that virtually everyone here is more knowledgeable than me.

The only point that I was trying to make is I think Jordan was dominant. I can't categorize LeBron's playoff performances in the same fashion as Jordan. In my opinion, that matters when you're trying to decide who the best player of all time is. That said, LeBron still has time to add to his legacy. If he pulls out a win in these Finals, he may be on his way to changing his perception.

The GOAT is still GOAT. AINYC.

Year OPP #Gm Min FG% 3P% FT% REB AST STL BLK PTS
1991 LAL (58-24) 5 44.0 55.8% 50.0% 84.8% 6.6 11.4 2.8 1.4 31.2 CHAMP
1992 POR (57-25) 6 42.3 52.6% 42.9% 89.1% 4.8 6.5 1.7 0.3 35.8 CHAMP
1993 PHO (62-20) 6 45.7 50.8% 40.0% 69.4% 8.5 6.3 1.7 0.7 41.0 CHAMP
1996 SEA (64-18) 6 42.0 41.5% 31.6% 83.6% 5.3 4.2 1.7 0.2 27.3 CHAMP
1997 UTA (64-18) 6 42.7 45.6% 32.0% 76.4% 7.0 6.0 1.2 0.8 32.3 CHAMP
1998 UTA (62-20) 6 41.7 42.7% 30.8% 81.4% 4.0 2.3 1.8 0.7 33.5 CHAMP
Total OPP (75% WP) 35 43.0 48.1% 36.8% 80.6% 6.0 6.0 1.8 0.7 33.6

Year OPP #Gm Min FG% 3P% FT% REB AST STL BLK PTS
2007 SAS (58-24) 4 42.5 35.6% 20.0% 69.0% 7.0 6.8 1.0 0.5 22.0
2011 DAL (57-25) 6 43.7 47.8% 32.1% 60.0% 7.2 6.8 1.7 0.5 17.8
2012 OKC (47-19) 5 44.0 47.2% 18.8% 82.6% 10.2 7.4 1.6 0.4 28.6 CHAMP
2013 SAS (58-24) 7 43.1 44.7% 35.3% 79.5% 10.9 7.0 2.3 0.9 25.3 CHAMP
2014 SAS (62-20) 5 38.0 57.1% 51.9% 79.3% 7.8 4.0 2.0 0.4 28.2
2015 GSW (67-15) 4 45.8 38.8% 33.3% 70.0% 12.0 8.3 1.3 0.8 35.8 ???
Total OPP (73% WP) 42.8 44.8% 33.6% 74.6% 9.2 6.7 1.7 0.6 25.8

And don't forget the East is a joke today compared to the 1990s.

fyp



itt I learn that Pau Gasol was way better (for longer, huh) than I thought...

I know a lot of people believe this, but to me it's just sad... basketball has turned into a pick-and-roll/3-point contest. I guess free throws still count though. it might be more mathematically sound, but it's not nearly as much fun to watch. I used to scoff at people who said you only need to tune in for the last 5 minutes but now I'm one of them. everybody's trying to do the same thing... how is that good?

the game has gotten away from one of the reasons Naismith came up with it in the first place - so that different sized players with different skill sets could play together.

also, just wondering, when I "compare" Labron to MJ, is that 80's MJ, or modern training/eating/experience MJ? you all know that Jordan would've used everything available to him to get better. do you realize that the only way they stopped Jordan was by tackling him? he would've averaged at least 50 points a game at least once in this era.

Why do Argentina and Brazil produce so many great football players? It's not because of the youth leagues and foreign talent. It's because they play in the street as little kids and learn to just be monsters individually on the ball. When you get them into some structure at 12 or 13 they explode. It used to be that way in the US with basketball. You went to the park and played with men if you had the chops to get on the court. The kids who survived became Allen Iverson. Now it's all a bunch of coaching and softness. The overall level has gone down, not up. There's no team with Moses because there's no Moses. The best centers in recent years are Duncan and the Gasols, who are old-school players. Chris Bosh is nothing more than a Kevin Willis, he just looks better because of what he plays against.

I found it hilarious when LeBron was talking about receiving treatments non stop between Game 3 and 4. MJ would have been out playing 36 holes of golf on his day off. Even in today's game MJ would still be playing 36 holes of golf

But how much would he lose?

MJ game 6 box score vs Utah. Only one other player in double digits. Played 44 minutes, no excuses about tired legs or none of that BS.

This is something that I thought about yesterday after my debate with Noze. It's stated as fact in Sam Smith's "The Jordan Rules", but no concrete proof is given in that book. But, then the other day I was watching the 30 for 30 on the Bad Boys, and Isiah Thomas tells the story about sitting on a park bench facing Lake Michigan all night long after a game 1 loss to Jordan in the '89 playoffs, I believe. He sat their all night trying to think of a way to beat Michael Jordan because he felt he was unstoppable. That's when he came up with "The Jordan Rules".

The other night in the Warriors/Cavs Finals thread I saw everyone going crazy about LeBron not getting calls because he was tapped on the forearm or a finger nicked his wrist on a layup. They said the NBA rigged the game 4 outcome. If that's so, then what is Bill Laimbeer close-lining Jordan?

I've never gotten an answer to that from the LeBron is GOAT camp. Noze glossed over his 2011 Finals performance. I think LeBron fans get really butthurt when you point these things out. Which is strange to me, because I don't have any trouble giving him his props. Jordan never took a team as weak as this year's Cavs or the 2007 Cavs to the Finals. I don't think the 2011 Heat were that great of a team, either. LeBron should be given his due credit for those accomplishments. But, if you give him credit where it's due, then you have to give him blame where it's warranted too. Jordan never played that poorly in any playoff series as LeBron played in the 2011 Finals. LeBron played weak, he played nervous, he looked lost for most of the series. I just don't understand how people can then say he was better than Jordan.

Jordan got 79 fts in 6 games in 89. 72 in 7 in 90. And 48 in 4 in 91.

I guess you want to just act like the 1995 playoffs never happened?

94-95 Bulls Playoff record: 6-5

The foot speed and strength of the players is far superior now. So going against Iguodala, Kawhi Leonard, Paul George in ECFs/finals with zone rules is tougher than having Kevin Johnson, John Starks or Bryon Russell handcheck you.

That is the counter to what you are saying.

Rofl. amazing. Want more

Ok? So, I'll stipulate if LeBron takes off the next 2 years to play football or do whatever, I won't hold it against the Cavs if they don't do well in the playoffs.

That's a good point. I also think it's a fair counter point to cite the players receiving better medical treatment now and how the advances in science have allowed them to recover faster after games.

Of course, why comparing era's is pretty damn hard. It's just not fair, but in general by in large the baseline player is better now. Also the PEDs are better.

Comparing guys playing against the same exact comp isn't even that easy sometimes, so nevermind best player now vs best player 15-20 years ago.

In general though with scouting, analytics, coaching and the roleplayers being better, the edge the #1 guy has on the rest of the league should be smaller. Although massive conference imbalance with LeBron in the east tends to mask that.

Probably not the best example of MJ's stamina. I mean, he obviously played the last minute of the game flawlessly, but the 11 minutes before that he looked horribly winded. He shot 0 of 6 from the field with every shot coming up short. He definitely had tired legs.

You probably should have bought out games when MJ was actually around LeBrons age, not from when he was much older, to show the equivalent.

I also remember the series against Indiana that year. From memory I think he even came out and said he was fatigued.

I'm not saying MJ never got tired, I'm just saying he never used it as an excuse.

Comparing 30 yr old MJ with 30 yr old Lebron would just be unfair. Now go into GS and take game 5 and maybe we can talk but I don't see it happening.

Pulling one random box score is nothing short of amazing

especially a box score where MJ had 1 assist and his teammates shot 59%. lebron wore down last game but still had 8 assists and the rest of his team was 22-66, 3-23 from three